property/seawall article

[ZelenskyTheValiant (Ivan)]

I'm looking at pictures in that long article posted at the top and if you scroll down there are 2 pictures side by side - one from 1980 where you see a lot of the beach and one from now where there is no more beach, as the water comes up right to the seawall. Well if you look at the 1980 picture on the left, you'll see that there is only a seawall on the left side of the gate. On the right side of the gate there appears to be no seawall at all - just a long fence all the way to the boathouse and the adjacent property. That's curious because that's when they started filming MPI and as far as I recall I never remember seeing a fence there. I always seem to recall a seawall. And if you say that Eve Anderson already inherited that seawall then I have to assume it was there long before 1980. Are my eyes playing tricks on me? I swear I'm seeing a fence where the seawall should be to the right of the gate.

[K Hale]

There’s a seawall, it’s just short on that side. And the fence rises above it. The photo is pretty blurry.

[ZelenskyTheValiant (Ivan)]

If so, the current sea wall looks higher than the one in the 1980 pic. Or could it be the sand was much higher then and was a covering at least half of that wall? Now that the sandy beach is gone and the sand washed away, more of the wall is now exposed?

[Pahonu]

The report on the sea walls done as a requirement for altering them is very thorough. It states there was a sea wall in the area of the main house, the very high one, that existed when Mrs. Wall bought that part of the property. The other end of the property where the boathouse is, also had an existing sea wall, though much lower. That was a separate property purchase. In between those two properties and sea walls, there was not an existing sea wall. When Mrs. Wall assembled all the properties to create Pahonu she had the sea wall in between built, connecting the two. That new sea wall, also lower, is both set back further, on her property so it’s not on state property, and includes the storm drain exit by the gate as an easement to drain from the newly built Kalanianaole Highway. Even that newer, central section of sea wall dates to the 1930’s. There was also a pier that existed by the boathouse at the time of Mrs. Wall’s purchases, and another that had previously existed near the tall sea wall by the main house.

This page shows much of what I’m explaining:

http://magnum-mania.com/Forum/viewtopic ... start=1590

The Nohokula and Pahanua/Crane properties both had sea walls that still exist today. They also had piers, now gone. In between, on government land sold to her, was the new sea wall built for Mrs. Wall as part of Pahonu. The location of the old road, before the highway was built, can be seen in the first map from 1928. The last map shows the assembled property and the storm drain easement.

[Gorilla Mask]

At first glance i was a bit shocked. Afterthought, i made up my mind about this.

I was thinking about the point you explain Panohu and... Well, you're right when you call upon considering all the matters in the presence :

1/ Beach beds and expanses which are threaten to be washed up and sweep away by the rising flow of flooding waters and alteration of the sea currents. The environemental studies about this phenomenon are quite new as the belated conclusions about existing seawalls effect in worsening it. Yes that is a public concern for the middle term but it is not proven with the climate changes and rising waters, how these beaches could be preserved on the long term anyway  ;
2/ Property interest which is a plain subjective right (constitutional right in France as it might be in the US too) of all individual. No one land owner (whatever his estate's worth) would accept, without legal action, a massive loss of his property value. So, netheir Nesbitt or Anderson was in fact buying a privilege with money : they just defend their good from decaying and were paying a right to 'rent' a little part of public domain for a time, , not more, not less.

The environnemental setback of seawalls on beaches is now proven, for all that, is it a reasonable answer to doom with certainty bunches of seaside properties ? Some have worked really hard to affoard such estates/villas and it could burden the Housing economy...
So the Hawaii Housing/environnemental Board has done its job considering and weigh up both adverse matters in this case. Both solutions had their bad counterparts, so, IMO, the Board choose what it judged as the lesser prejudice...

I am not sure to explain it precisely but i hope you catched the whole idea.

[ZelenskyTheValiant (Ivan)]

The report on the sea walls done as a requirement for altering them is very thorough. It states there was a sea wall in the area of the main house, the very high one, that existed when Mrs. Wall bought that part of the property. The other end of the property where the boathouse is, also had an existing sea wall, though much lower. That was a separate property purchase. In between those two properties and sea walls, there was not an existing sea wall. When Mrs. Wall assembled all the properties to create Pahonu she had the sea wall in between built, connecting the two. That new sea wall, also lower, is both set back further, on her property so it’s not on state property, and includes the storm drain exit by the gate as an easement to drain from the newly built Kalanianaole Highway. Even that newer, central section of sea wall dates to the 1930’s. There was also a pier that existed by the boathouse at the time of Mrs. Wall’s purchases, and another that had previously existed near the tall sea wall by the main house.

This page shows much of what I’m explaining:

http://magnum-mania.com/Forum/viewtopic ... start=1590

The Nohokula and Pahanua/Crane properties both had sea walls that still exist today. They also had piers, now gone. In between, on government land sold to her, was the new sea wall built for Mrs. Wall as part of Pahonu. The location of the old road, before the highway was as built, can be seen in the first map from 1928. The last map shows the assembled property and the storm drain easement.

Thanks for the info, Pahonu. Who exactly is Mrs. Wall and what is her relationship to Eve Anderson? Also, when Mrs. Wall purchased the 2 properties in 1928 were any structures already present there? The main house, boat house, gate house? Or did she build all that?

[Pahonu]

The report on the sea walls done as a requirement for altering them is very thorough. It states there was a sea wall in the area of the main house, the very high one, that existed when Mrs. Wall bought that part of the property. The other end of the property where the boathouse is, also had an existing sea wall, though much lower. That was a separate property purchase. In between those two properties and sea walls, there was not an existing sea wall. When Mrs. Wall assembled all the properties to create Pahonu she had the sea wall in between built, connecting the two. That new sea wall, also lower, is both set back further, on her property so it’s not on state property, and includes the storm drain exit by the gate as an easement to drain from the newly built Kalanianaole Highway. Even that newer, central section of sea wall dates to the 1930’s. There was also a pier that existed by the boathouse at the time of Mrs. Wall’s purchases, and another that had previously existed near the tall sea wall by the main house.

This page shows much of what I’m explaining:

http://magnum-mania.com/Forum/viewtopic ... start=1590

The Nohokula and Pahanua/Crane properties both had sea walls that still exist today. They also had piers, now gone. In between, on government land sold to her, was the new sea wall built for Mrs. Wall as part of Pahonu. The location of the old road, before the highway was as built, can be seen in the first map from 1928. The last map shows the assembled property and the storm drain easement.

Thanks for the info, Pahonu. Who exactly is Mrs. Wall and what is her relationship to Eve Anderson? Also, when Mrs. Wall purchased the 2 properties in 1928 were any structures already present there? The main house, boat house, gate house? Or did she build all that?

Glad you're interested.

Mrs. Wall was the widow of a prominent Honolulu dentist named Ormand Wall, if I remember correctly. He was from a prominent family of means and served politically as well. Rembrandt's Girl did all the research on this and posted newspaper articles about it in this thread, so I hope I'm getting it right. Her name was Julia Grossman Wall and she was Eve Anderson's grandmother. After her husband's death, she went about buying several properties to assemble a large country house. They also had a large city home in Honolulu. The 1928 map shows several structures on various properties before she acquired them. She bought more than two parcels. Several are named on the map, including Lots E, F, G, H which are inland and were owned by the government. None of the government land had structures because the existing road was there. The decision was made to build the Kalanianaole Highway further inland than the road, and she was able to purchase it when it became available. The storm drain running from the highway and emptying by the beach gate were an easement established as part of the land purchase from the territorial government.

It took her a few years to do all of this, including a court case about one of the privately owned parcels and the approval to purchase the government land that was intended to be set aside for native Hawaiians. The map shows 7 total lots were purchased to complete the property. With the property assembled she went about hiring prominent local architect Lewis Davis to design the new estate. All the existing structures were razed and in about a year's time, the main house, gatehouse, boathouse, and bathing pavilion were all constructed in the Spanish Colonial Revival Style, along with the new seawall section I wrote about above. One newspaper article stated the first construction was the perimeter lava rock wall. The original permits also show approval for construction of a lath house for propagating seedlings but no tennis court. Records indicate a tennis court was constructed shortly after, but later removed at an unknown date, as was the lath house. The tennis court shown in Magnum was built after Hawaii Five-O debuted in 1968 because it's absent in early episodes. Mrs. Wall used the home for personal guests and civic functions until her death.

[ZelenskyTheValiant (Ivan)]

The report on the sea walls done as a requirement for altering them is very thorough. It states there was a sea wall in the area of the main house, the very high one, that existed when Mrs. Wall bought that part of the property. The other end of the property where the boathouse is, also had an existing sea wall, though much lower. That was a separate property purchase. In between those two properties and sea walls, there was not an existing sea wall. When Mrs. Wall assembled all the properties to create Pahonu she had the sea wall in between built, connecting the two. That new sea wall, also lower, is both set back further, on her property so it’s not on state property, and includes the storm drain exit by the gate as an easement to drain from the newly built Kalanianaole Highway. Even that newer, central section of sea wall dates to the 1930’s. There was also a pier that existed by the boathouse at the time of Mrs. Wall’s purchases, and another that had previously existed near the tall sea wall by the main house.

This page shows much of what I’m explaining:

http://magnum-mania.com/Forum/viewtopic ... start=1590

The Nohokula and Pahanua/Crane properties both had sea walls that still exist today. They also had piers, now gone. In between, on government land sold to her, was the new sea wall built for Mrs. Wall as part of Pahonu. The location of the old road, before the highway was as built, can be seen in the first map from 1928. The last map shows the assembled property and the storm drain easement.

Thanks for the info, Pahonu. Who exactly is Mrs. Wall and what is her relationship to Eve Anderson? Also, when Mrs. Wall purchased the 2 properties in 1928 were any structures already present there? The main house, boat house, gate house? Or did she build all that?

Glad you're interested.

Mrs. Wall was the widow of a prominent Honolulu dentist named Ormand Wall, if I remember correctly. He was from a prominent family of means and served politically as well. Rembrandt's Girl did all the research on this and posted newspaper articles about it in this thread, so I hope I'm getting it right. Her name was Julia Grossman Wall and she was Eve Anderson's grandmother. After her husband's death, she went about buying several properties to assemble a large country house. They also had a large city home in Honolulu. The 1928 map shows several structures on various properties before she acquired them. She bought more than two parcels. Several are named on the map, including Lots E, F, G, H which are inland and were owned by the government. None of the government land had structures because the existing road was there. The decision was made to build the Kalanianaole Highway further inland than the road, and she was able to purchase it when it became available. The storm drain running from the highway and emptying by the beach gate were an easement established as part of the land purchase from the territorial government.

It took her a few years to do all of this, including a court case about one of the privately owned parcels and the approval to purchase the government land that was intended to be set aside for native Hawaiians. The map shows 7 total lots were purchased to complete the property. With the property assembled she went about hiring prominent local architect Lewis Davis to design the new estate. All the existing structures were razed and in about a year's time, the main house, gatehouse, boathouse, and bathing pavilion were all constructed in the Spanish Colonial Revival Style, along with the new seawall section I wrote about above. One newspaper article stated the first construction was the perimeter lava rock wall. The original permits also show approval for construction of a lath house for propagating seedlings but no tennis court. Records indicate a tennis court was constructed shortly after, but later removed at an unknown date, as was the lath house. The tennis court shown in Magnum was built after Hawaii Five-O debuted in 1968 because it's absent in early episodes. Mrs. Wall used the home for personal guests and civic functions until her death.

Thanks for that info, Pahonu. Any idea how old Mrs. Wall was in 1928 or when she was born? I wonder how she acted back in the day? Was she very aristocratic? I suppose if she had servants living at the gatehouse then she must have been something. I can't imagine this was standard back in the day, even among the more wealthy. She must have had quite the pedigree. If you look at Eve Anderson (judging by some YouTube videos) she's very much a "plain jane" in comparison. Of course these are different times to the 20s, but still... one couldn't tell she came from wealth and a high pecking order.

Looks like lots E, F, G, H were located at what is now the perimeter wall (lava rock?) along the Kalanianaole Hwy.

[Pahonu]

The report on the sea walls done as a requirement for altering them is very thorough. It states there was a sea wall in the area of the main house, the very high one, that existed when Mrs. Wall bought that part of the property. The other end of the property where the boathouse is, also had an existing sea wall, though much lower. That was a separate property purchase. In between those two properties and sea walls, there was not an existing sea wall. When Mrs. Wall assembled all the properties to create Pahonu she had the sea wall in between built, connecting the two. That new sea wall, also lower, is both set back further, on her property so it’s not on state property, and includes the storm drain exit by the gate as an easement to drain from the newly built Kalanianaole Highway. Even that newer, central section of sea wall dates to the 1930’s. There was also a pier that existed by the boathouse at the time of Mrs. Wall’s purchases, and another that had previously existed near the tall sea wall by the main house.

This page shows much of what I’m explaining:

http://magnum-mania.com/Forum/viewtopic ... start=1590

The Nohokula and Pahanua/Crane properties both had sea walls that still exist today. They also had piers, now gone. In between, on government land sold to her, was the new sea wall built for Mrs. Wall as part of Pahonu. The location of the old road, before the highway was as built, can be seen in the first map from 1928. The last map shows the assembled property and the storm drain easement.

Thanks for the info, Pahonu. Who exactly is Mrs. Wall and what is her relationship to Eve Anderson? Also, when Mrs. Wall purchased the 2 properties in 1928 were any structures already present there? The main house, boat house, gate house? Or did she build all that?

Glad you're interested.

Mrs. Wall was the widow of a prominent Honolulu dentist named Ormand Wall, if I remember correctly. He was from a prominent family of means and served politically as well. Rembrandt's Girl did all the research on this and posted newspaper articles about it in this thread, so I hope I'm getting it right. Her name was Julia Grossman Wall and she was Eve Anderson's grandmother. After her husband's death, she went about buying several properties to assemble a large country house. They also had a large city home in Honolulu. The 1928 map shows several structures on various properties before she acquired them. She bought more than two parcels. Several are named on the map, including Lots E, F, G, H which are inland and were owned by the government. None of the government land had structures because the existing road was there. The decision was made to build the Kalanianaole Highway further inland than the road, and she was able to purchase it when it became available. The storm drain running from the highway and emptying by the beach gate were an easement established as part of the land purchase from the territorial government.

It took her a few years to do all of this, including a court case about one of the privately owned parcels and the approval to purchase the government land that was intended to be set aside for native Hawaiians. The map shows 7 total lots were purchased to complete the property. With the property assembled she went about hiring prominent local architect Lewis Davis to design the new estate. All the existing structures were razed and in about a year's time, the main house, gatehouse, boathouse, and bathing pavilion were all constructed in the Spanish Colonial Revival Style, along with the new seawall section I wrote about above. One newspaper article stated the first construction was the perimeter lava rock wall. The original permits also show approval for construction of a lath house for propagating seedlings but no tennis court. Records indicate a tennis court was constructed shortly after, but later removed at an unknown date, as was the lath house. The tennis court shown in Magnum was built after Hawaii Five-O debuted in 1968 because it's absent in early episodes. Mrs. Wall used the home for personal guests and civic functions until her death.

Thanks for that info, Pahonu. Any idea how old Mrs. Wall was in 1928 or when she was born? I wonder how she acted back in the day? Was she very aristocratic? I suppose if she had servants living at the gatehouse then she must have been something. I can't imagine this was standard back in the day, even among the more wealthy. She must have had quite the pedigree. If you look at Eve Anderson (judging by some YouTube videos) she's very much a "plain jane" in comparison. Of course these are different times to the 20s, but still... one couldn't tell she came from wealth and a high pecking order.

Looks like lots E, F, G, H were located at what is now the perimeter wall (lava rock?) along the Kalanianaole Hwy.

Here’s some information about her:

http://magnum-mania.com/Forum/viewtopic ... &start=135

https://ibb.co/SRnF7zv

I messed some stuff up. Her first husband, Moses Grossman was the dentist. She later remarried and became Wall.

Having an estate of that size necessitated having servants. First, because of its shear size and second, it was not the primary residence. Having servants was still relatively common for the well to do into the 20’s. The decline began during the Great Depression and after WWII, became far less common.

Edit:

Just read that second husband Ormond Wall was a dental surgeon and that Moses Grossman, the dentist, had been in the islands since the monarchy, before it became a territory of the US in 1893. The real money seemed to be on Julia’s side from her Chicago family.

Here’s the environmental study for the sea wall permit request. It is looong but it is packed with information!!!

http://oeqc2.doh.hawaii.gov/Doc_Library ... Repair.pdf

[Gorilla Mask]

hello Panohu, Hello Ivan,

Reviewing briefly the (really interesting, while technical) study for the sea wall permit request you posted, a question sprang to my mind. It should have already been solved somewhere on the forum anyway.

If you review the first minutes of "Don't eat the Snow", you could easily notice, at that time, that the beach sand outer limit came up and reached the security gate that TM lockpicked so easily.

At that time, the beach expanse seemed much more at the same level as the gate than today. In the blueprints shown at page 2-4 (and mostly on the photos) you could see a set of (4 or 5) large concrete steps there with a significative incline to the beach...

Was it the result of further consolidation/restoration works led in the late 80's or 90's ? Did i missed something (very likely, indeed...)?

[Pahonu]

hello Panohu, Hello Ivan,

Reviewing briefly the (really interesting, while technical) study for the sea wall permit request you posted, a question sprang to my mind. It should have already been solved somewhere on the forum anyway.

If you review the first minutes of "Don't eat the Snow", you could easily notice, at that time, that the beach sand outer limit came up and reached the security gate that TM lockpicked so easily.

At that time, the beach expanse seemed much more at the same level as the gate than today. In the blueprints shown at page 2-4 (and mostly on the photos) you could see a set of (4 or 5) large concrete steps there with a significative incline to the beach...

Was it the result of further consolidation/restoration works led in the late 80's or 90's ? Did i missed something (very likely, indeed...)?

Hey GM,

I think most people don’t realize the level of sand movement that can happen on a beach in just a matter of days, especially on narrower stretches like Pahonu’s because of the sea walls. Living on the coast like I do makes you much more aware and observant. I’ve seen storm surge remove several FEET of sand in a couple days in Malibu after big swells. Pahonu will see less of this because of its location in general and the tidal pond walls in the water. However, as sea level rises, those same tidal pond wall slow the depositing of sand while the rising sea level removes it.

I don’t have quick access to the map, but somewhere in this forum?!? is a map showing the sea level rise at Pahonu over about 80 years. It has different colored lines for the mean high tide line in several different years. Long story short, the rise is accelerating, not rising steadily. If you think about it, the pilot episode was filmed when the house was 47 years old. It’s now been 40 years since then. The greatest rise has happened in the last couple of decades, years after the show ended. The architect designed those sloping steps at the beach gate in expectation of typical sand movement. Sometimes there was a lot of sand there and sometimes less. What we saw in any particular episode was unique to that day as the tides constantly change the coast.

[Gorilla Mask]

Hey Panohu, thanks for your quick and (as always) expert answer !

The phenomenon you described is very plausible to me: the local currents and water flow system may have changed a lot too, that is not for ease of comparaison. So, i understand that the few large concrete steps, uncovered today, were probably under 5 or 6 feet of piled sand in 1980...

Quite odd, at first glance for the new comer, but so logical, after the first analysis, considering the elapsed time.

Thanks for that expertise !

[Pahonu]

Hey Panohu, thanks for your quick and (as always) expert answer !

The phenomenon you described is very plausible to me: the local currents and water flow system may have changed a lot too, that is not for ease of comparaison. So, i understand that the few large concrete steps, uncovered today, were probably under 5 or 6 feet of piled sand in 1980...

Quite odd, at first glance for the new comer, but so logical, after the first analysis, considering the elapsed time.

Thanks for that expertise !

I don’t think the sand was quite that deep but it was under sand. The level of the bottom of the gate into the property is only about 5-6 feet above the current mean high tide line and the sand sloped up to it.

I don’t know if you’ve noticed it, but the ramp from the boathouse to the sand can be seen with a vertical drop off in some recent photos. The ramp ends in a ledge because of sand loss.

[Gorilla Mask]

Hey Panohu, thanks for your quick and (as always) expert answer !

The phenomenon you described is very plausible to me: the local currents and water flow system may have changed a lot too, that is not for ease of comparaison. So, i understand that the few large concrete steps, uncovered today, were probably under 5 or 6 feet of piled sand in 1980...

Quite odd, at first glance for the new comer, but so logical, after the first analysis, considering the elapsed time.

Thanks for that expertise !

I don’t think the sand was quite that deep but it was under sand. The level of the bottom of the gate into the property is only about 5-6 feet above the current mean high tide line and the sand sloped up to it.

I don’t know if you’ve noticed it, but the ramp from the boathouse to the sand can be seen with a vertical drop off in some recent photos. The ramp ends in a ledge because of sand loss.

Hi Panohu, yes, i notice it as you state it. It appears to be quite marked, unfortunately... 3 feet deep, i would say...

https://ibb.co/7kMzmmw

[Gorilla Mask]

Again, concerning the Beach main access, here is a shot from 2.19 "Double Jeopardy":

https://ibb.co/ZWng2rh

Indeed, you can see that the upper steps are barely covered by sand.

Compared to this:

https://ibb.co/b78wk7B

and this (from the recent article):

https://ibb.co/zJzckd1

the sand depleting (around 4-5 feet is quite obvious.