At what age did you discover MPI?

[MagnumsLeftShoulder]

As for present day cable TV yes I've heard it being said that TV today is better than ever before, but personally I find much of today's output way too dark and gloomy for my tastes,

I agree. There's too much gloom and doom on TV today. I don't want everything to be Highway to Heaven level sappy, but I don't like so much dystopia type stuff either. Why can't somebody find the happy medium? "Gritty" as become TV codeword for "sick and twisted." As for comedies, they absolutely suck. They are too afraid they'll offend somebody.

I think the photography of today's series is also superior to much of the late 70's and early 80's TV series

I agree with this too. TV as a visual medium never looked better. It's the storytelling that's not so great these days.

I usually would say the 1980s were the best era for TV, but I've been re-watching some stuff from the 90's (JAG, Early Edition, Seinfeld, Friends, Frasier) lately and I'm thinking it was a pretty good era too. I might argue that the 1990s had the best comedies ever because anything and everything was ripe for ridicule.

[Kevster]

This commentary is not a commentary on the creative prowess of modern productions, but on the cultural pollution that permeates all network and most cable now. It's not prudish isolationism that is being referenced here, but an aversion to a skewed perspective that turns "entertainment" into propaganda.

At least, that's what I get from the exchange.

Am I in the ball park?

[Pahonu]

This commentary is not a commentary on the creative prowess of modern productions, but on the cultural pollution that permeates all network and most cable now. It's not prudish isolationism that is being referenced here, but an aversion to a skewed perspective that turns "entertainment" into propaganda.

At least, that's what I get from the exchange.

Am I in the ball park?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "cultural pollution" or a skewed perspective. In every time period, the artistic output reflects the time and place it was created. Art and architecture of the middle ages in Europe, for example, reflect the dominant role of the catholic church, just like the monuments of classical Greece and Rome reflect those culture's belief systems. I think this is universal. There were almost certainly people in those eras who had different ideas than the predominant cultural views, just as there are today, but the cultural norms of that time and place had the greatest influence on creative output.

If you look at more modern art forms like film and television, that still holds true. A film made in the 1930's about say, the US Civil War would be quite different from a 1980's film about the same topic or a current film, for that matter. US television of the 1950's showed very few African American's, for example, even though they made up approximately the same percentage of the US population as today. That's obviously changed. I remember reading several years ago that western series made up a extremely high percentage of TV shows in the 1950's and early 60's. The number of cowboys who were black and other African Americans who were out west was far higher than most people realize, i.e. the buffalo soldiers, but they were never depicted in those older TV shows.

I think this is exactly why many on this forum, including myself, are not exactly enamored of the new MPI series. It seems clearly a reflection of today's society, rather than the period of the original show that we so fondly remember. I just think we all might be doing the proverbial hitting our heads against the wall in trying to resist the change. Perhaps the MPI episode Transitions expresses this idea best. Change is going to happen, good or bad, it's the transitions that are tough.

[Kevster]

I agree, though I believe that the many periods in the past, whether the middle ages or the mid-20th century, the institutions with the loudest voices were more restrictive in nature. I would say that the opposite is true today. Now, the institutions with the loudest voices are entertainment and journalism, and they are actively trying to generate cultural shifts. Intelligent people can often tell when they are being persuaded via pathos (emotion) and not logos (logic), or when the logic being presented has an inherent flaw.

A great analogy: Come home with 5 fish and tell your spouse, "I caught five fish for us." This is technically true whether you caught five fish with a fishing pole, or you had the guy in the seafood section toss you five fish from behind the counter. However, the statement inherently communicates the former, while the latter may be the truth. The initial stating was intended to mislead, which I sense is a very common facet of both modern entertainment and journalism.

So, I find that much of today's entertainment is trying to shape culture rather than reflect it. Instead of aspiring to reflect a higher-caliber of ethical character, in addition to class, culture, and an appreciation for education, like the original MPI did, we get the lowest common denominator... THAT is polluted thinking. Personally, it is a major turn off, and so I don't watch. It's not because I don't watch ANYTHING, it's just that I rarely watch anything that comes on the five main US networks. I watch some cable shows, movies, and that's about it. It's been at least 10 years since I remember actively watching network shows. The last I tried was Agent Carter, and I had to turn it off a few weeks in. Not because of the issues noted here, but just that the writers seemed to have a total lack of understanding what was appealing about the character and the source movie.

When I try to watch many of today's shows, and social commentary is constantly presented, their attempts typically skew the stories from commonly shared experiences. As you noted, the new MPI already represents some of this... Most thinking adults, and even young adults, can understand a complex relationship between a quasi-father figure and Thomas Magnum from the 1980's MPI, and the aspirational facets of their mutual character. Yet, many of today's shows won't get out of shallow end of the proverbial pool. They seem to write from a checklist of superficial content rather than mining the real depths of the shared human experience.

I'd say that "skewing" and "polluting" are apt for what I described... Though, I could be wrong.

[Pahonu]

Hey Kevster,

I completely agree with your statement that in the past institutions with the loudest voices were more restrictive in nature. I would argue, however, that the loud voice of a free press and freedom of artistic creation in entertainment are good things. These institutions don't have the direct control over our lives that institutions like the church or an absolute monarchy had in the past and indeed many dictatorships today still have. Your stated choice not to watch or read or listen to much of this is a perfect example of these institutions lack of authority to restrict our behavior. If one doesn't like something, then choose something else. There are more choices today than ever. There were less in the past. In TV particularly, there is immensely more material produced than even 25 years ago, and if one can't find anything currently, new technologies are allowing us to enjoy just about anything from the past.

I don't agree, though, that entertainment shapes culture more than it reflects it. I believe art emerges from people's life experiences. Writer's typically draw on things they have heard about or read about or experienced directly. Creating something completely from imagination is rare indeed. How many people could relate to such a thing? Even fantasy and science fiction often draw inspiration from real life. Good writers tweak and manipulate those ideas into new and entertaining concepts. The skewing of stories you mention is exactly the kind of creativity that makes things interesting for many. I have an analogy now. Some people like to eat the same types of food regularly (my sister ) because it's familiar and comforting, while others like to try lots of new things or it becomes repetitive and boring. That's more me. Sometimes I end up trying a dish I don't like and I don't have it any more, but I had the choice. Neither behavior is right or wrong, and both can be happy it there are lot's of choices. One just chooses fewer.

Speaking of commonly shared human experience seems tough to nail down. Even the universal theme of love can be experienced differently as, and I hesitate to bring it up, witnessed by heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, non-monogamous, polygamous and other types of relationships throughout history. I think these all represent some type of love, but I don't share most of these types of love experiences. I'm really not talking about the legality or political views of these experiences, rather more simply that they are all human experiences. Bill Paxton was in a show about a polygamous marriage a few years back. I never actually watched it, and can't think of the name at the moment, but I remember thinking it was pretty cool that the topic was being explored in a series. The creator's life experience seems to have been quite different than mine. I know very little about the subject.

I'm actually with you in that I don't watch much network television anymore. My son and I did enjoy Agent Carter, but I have no idea about the original source material. My son likes all the super hero stuff and I think Haley Atwell is a pretty good actress. I really enjoyed her performance and several others in the miniseries Pillars of the Earth. Did you ever see it?

I guess I just like the idea of having lots of choices even if I don't choose many of them.

[Kevster]

Pahonu,

Wow... Cool discussion!

To address a couple things quickly...

No, haven't seen Pillars, but I'll check it out. I think she's great, and easy on the eyes to boot.

I did not mean to infer that entertainment SHAPES culture right now... My assertion is that they are TRYING TO. Thus, my aversion. They are complicit in the bifurcation and polarization that has been becoming more pronounced in the last decade. Same with much of the press. Virtually all cable news is pathos first. Fair and balanced news is really nothing more than two or more people talking past each other and stirring the same old pot, etc. No fresh insight, no solution, and definitely no resolution. Conversely, the other news networks seem to be unabashedly selling their perspective without any of the pretense that had once been the norm.

I'd enjoy an old-fashioned telemarketer more than 5 minutes of cable news.

Basically, benefitting from a solid education, without accepting indoctrination, means a fairly well-attuned BS detector, and an understanding that a regular diet of the wrong stuff will drain the batteries...

[ZelenskyTheValiant (Ivan)]

I hated all those shows (especially Roseanne - oh God how I hated Roseanne!). I also hated the A-Team and All In The Family.

We're absolutely on the same page about ROSEANNE. I just couldn't stand her cackle and never understood why that show was a ratings hit or lasted as long as it did. If I wanted to watch a dysfunctional family I'd rather tune into MARRIED... WITH CHILDREN. While raunchy, at least that show was legit funny!

But I totally disagree with you on ALL IN THE FAMILY. It's pretty much the greatest sitcom ever and whenever it comes on I can't help but sit down and watch it. Archie Bunker was a riot!! "Dingbat" Edith? "Meathead" Michael? Little Goil? Hilarious show! Couldn't be made today. Everyone is too serious and easily offended.

THE A-TEAM is an 80s classic! In fact I'd say that along with MPI it's the other action/adventure show from the 80s that has really held up and doesn't come across as cheesy as some of the others. I think it's mostly due to some of the memorable dialogue written by Stephen J. Cannell's team for the 4 leads and the genuine chemistry and good acting between the leads (Peppard, Benedict, and Dwight Schultz in particular who pretty much stole the show in every episode). I can pop in an episode anytime and always enjoy it. KNIGHT RIDER, which used to be my absolute favorite, on the other hand I have to be in the mood for.

[ZelenskyTheValiant (Ivan)]

Pahonu, the one recent show (and when I say recent I mean 10 years ago LOL) that I was totally hooked on was "24". The best show I had EVER seen! I stumbled on it back in January 2005 when its 4th season started and was immediately hooked. When the season ended I quickly ran to the library and rented the DVDs and got caught up on the first 3 seasons. Then I was ready for season 5! Those first 5 seasons in particular were just 24-karat gold as far as I was concerned. I was never more riveted by a TV show in my life! And this was network TV mind you - FOX. I also had never seen better acting than on that show. Not before, not since. Kiefer Sutherland, Dennis Haysbert, Gregory Itzin, Jean Smart, Penny Johnson, Jude Ciccolella, Xander Berkeley, Reiko Aylseworth, Carlos Bernard, etc. A superb cast they had on that show, which changed and evolved over the years. The writing, especially in the earlier seasons, was mind-blowing! Production values, the score, everything was ace! It was like watching some suspenseful big-screen feature movie weekly on your TV. Better than anything in the movie theaters! I own all the seasons on DVD and even though there are no surprises or shocking twists for me to discover anymore I still get totally sucked in once I start rewatching a season. I know what's going to happen and yet it still has that affect on me. I also feel drained after watching a season because it really sucks you in and I really get invested in those characters and everything they go through during the course of those 24 hours/24 episodes. It's definitely not a kick back and relax type of show like MPI. Just the opposite. After 24 I said OK I don't want to invest anymore time and energy into another dark and moody show like this LOL! Even though it truly was superb television. But I can only take so much doom and gloom before I want to go back to the more innocent and carefree times of television

Don't know if you're familiar with the show or if you watched it.

[Kevster]

Pahonu, the one recent show (and when I say recent I mean 10 years ago LOL) that I was totally hooked on was "24". The best show I had EVER seen! I stumbled on it back in January 2005 when its 4th season started and was immediately hooked. When the season ended I quickly ran to the library and rented the DVDs and got caught up on the first 3 seasons. Then I was ready for season 5! Those first 5 seasons in particular were just 24-karat gold as far as I was concerned. I was never more riveted by a TV show in my life! And this was network TV mind you - FOX. I also had never seen better acting than on that show. Not before, not since. Kiefer Sutherland, Dennis Haysbert, Gregory Itzin, Jean Smart, Penny Johnson, Jude Ciccolella, Xander Berkeley, Reiko Aylseworth, Carlos Bernard, etc. A superb cast they had on that show, which changed and evolved over the years. The writing, especially in the earlier seasons, was mind-blowing! Production values, the score, everything was ace! It was like watching some suspenseful big-screen feature movie weekly on your TV. Better than anything in the movie theaters! I own all the seasons on DVD and even though there are no surprises or shocking twists for me to discover anymore I still get totally sucked in once I start rewatching a season. I know what's going to happen and yet it still has that affect on me. I also feel drained after watching a season because it really sucks you in and I really get invested in those characters and everything they go through during the course of those 24 hours/24 episodes. It's definitely not a kick back and relax type of show like MPI. Just the opposite. After 24 I said OK I don't want to invest anymore time and energy into another dark and moody show like this LOL! Even though it truly was superb television. But I can only take so much doom and gloom before I want to go back to the more innocent and carefree times of television

Don't know if you're familiar with the show or if you watched it.

So, just to be certain, you were sort of fond of 24?



AGREED! Never watched it when it was broadcast, but caught it after the main series ended. Watched the mini-season when it was broadcast though. During the original series run, it was always shown on nights I was busy. And, I've never done DVR... Proof that they CAN DO good TV when they have the right leadership and vision.

The timing of the premiere and 9/11 was mind-blowing.

[ZelenskyTheValiant (Ivan)]

Pahonu, the one recent show (and when I say recent I mean 10 years ago LOL) that I was totally hooked on was "24". The best show I had EVER seen! I stumbled on it back in January 2005 when its 4th season started and was immediately hooked. When the season ended I quickly ran to the library and rented the DVDs and got caught up on the first 3 seasons. Then I was ready for season 5! Those first 5 seasons in particular were just 24-karat gold as far as I was concerned. I was never more riveted by a TV show in my life! And this was network TV mind you - FOX. I also had never seen better acting than on that show. Not before, not since. Kiefer Sutherland, Dennis Haysbert, Gregory Itzin, Jean Smart, Penny Johnson, Jude Ciccolella, Xander Berkeley, Reiko Aylseworth, Carlos Bernard, etc. A superb cast they had on that show, which changed and evolved over the years. The writing, especially in the earlier seasons, was mind-blowing! Production values, the score, everything was ace! It was like watching some suspenseful big-screen feature movie weekly on your TV. Better than anything in the movie theaters! I own all the seasons on DVD and even though there are no surprises or shocking twists for me to discover anymore I still get totally sucked in once I start rewatching a season. I know what's going to happen and yet it still has that affect on me. I also feel drained after watching a season because it really sucks you in and I really get invested in those characters and everything they go through during the course of those 24 hours/24 episodes. It's definitely not a kick back and relax type of show like MPI. Just the opposite. After 24 I said OK I don't want to invest anymore time and energy into another dark and moody show like this LOL! Even though it truly was superb television. But I can only take so much doom and gloom before I want to go back to the more innocent and carefree times of television

Don't know if you're familiar with the show or if you watched it.

So, just to be certain, you were sort of fond of 24?



AGREED! Never watched it when it was broadcast, but caught it after the main series ended. Watched the mini-season when it was broadcast though. During the original series run, it was always shown on nights I was busy. And, I've never done DVR... Proof that they CAN DO good TV when they have the right leadership and vision.

The timing of the premiere and 9/11 was mind-blowing.

Yes, sort of...

Speaking of 9/11 (tomorrow) yes the coincidence of that horrible day's events (which of course started the war on terror) and this show (about fighting terrorists) debuting in the fall of 2001 is pretty eerie. When they started writing and filming the show pre-9/11 they obviously had no idea what was about to happen in a few months' time. This show ended up being EXTREMELY timely and topical. In fact they pushed back the debut date of the pilot to November 2001 because in the pilot there actually is a scene where a terrorist parachutes out of a passenger plane before blowing it up with everyone onboard perishing. Even in November I know this hit too close to home.

[Pahonu]

Pahonu,

Wow... Cool discussion!

To address a couple things quickly...

No, haven't seen Pillars, but I'll check it out. I think she's great, and easy on the eyes to boot.

I did not mean to infer that entertainment SHAPES culture right now... My assertion is that they are TRYING TO. Thus, my aversion. They are complicit in the bifurcation and polarization that has been becoming more pronounced in the last decade. Same with much of the press. Virtually all cable news is pathos first. Fair and balanced news is really nothing more than two or more people talking past each other and stirring the same old pot, etc. No fresh insight, no solution, and definitely no resolution. Conversely, the other news networks seem to be unabashedly selling their perspective without any of the pretense that had once been the norm.

I'd enjoy an old-fashioned telemarketer more than 5 minutes of cable news.

Basically, benefitting from a solid education, without accepting indoctrination, means a fairly well-attuned BS detector, and an understanding that a regular diet of the wrong stuff will drain the batteries...

I agree. I love these kinds of discussions.

I wasn't even considering network and cable news. That's a very different topic indeed.

[Pahonu]

Pahonu, the one recent show (and when I say recent I mean 10 years ago LOL) that I was totally hooked on was "24". The best show I had EVER seen! I stumbled on it back in January 2005 when its 4th season started and was immediately hooked. When the season ended I quickly ran to the library and rented the DVDs and got caught up on the first 3 seasons. Then I was ready for season 5! Those first 5 seasons in particular were just 24-karat gold as far as I was concerned. I was never more riveted by a TV show in my life! And this was network TV mind you - FOX. I also had never seen better acting than on that show. Not before, not since. Kiefer Sutherland, Dennis Haysbert, Gregory Itzin, Jean Smart, Penny Johnson, Jude Ciccolella, Xander Berkeley, Reiko Aylseworth, Carlos Bernard, etc. A superb cast they had on that show, which changed and evolved over the years. The writing, especially in the earlier seasons, was mind-blowing! Production values, the score, everything was ace! It was like watching some suspenseful big-screen feature movie weekly on your TV. Better than anything in the movie theaters! I own all the seasons on DVD and even though there are no surprises or shocking twists for me to discover anymore I still get totally sucked in once I start rewatching a season. I know what's going to happen and yet it still has that affect on me. I also feel drained after watching a season because it really sucks you in and I really get invested in those characters and everything they go through during the course of those 24 hours/24 episodes. It's definitely not a kick back and relax type of show like MPI. Just the opposite. After 24 I said OK I don't want to invest anymore time and energy into another dark and moody show like this LOL! Even though it truly was superb television. But I can only take so much doom and gloom before I want to go back to the more innocent and carefree times of television

Don't know if you're familiar with the show or if you watched it.

I had a friend who was obsessed with 24, but I never did watch it. He tried so hard to convince me though!

I heard many good things about it, and your description of it as a "big-screen feature movie weekly on your TV" is exactly why I think the critics have described more recent programming as a new golden age of television.

[Pahonu]

I hated all those shows (especially Roseanne - oh God how I hated Roseanne!). I also hated the A-Team and All In The Family.

We're absolutely on the same page about ROSEANNE. I just couldn't stand her cackle and never understood why that show was a ratings hit or lasted as long as it did. If I wanted to watch a dysfunctional family I'd rather tune into MARRIED... WITH CHILDREN. While raunchy, at least that show was legit funny!

But I totally disagree with you on ALL IN THE FAMILY. It's pretty much the greatest sitcom ever and whenever it comes on I can't help but sit down and watch it. Archie Bunker was a riot!! "Dingbat" Edith? "Meathead" Michael? Little Goil? Hilarious show! Couldn't be made today. Everyone is too serious and easily offended.

THE A-TEAM is an 80s classic! In fact I'd say that along with MPI it's the other action/adventure show from the 80s that has really held up and doesn't come across as cheesy as some of the others. I think it's mostly due to some of the memorable dialogue written by Stephen J. Cannell's team for the 4 leads and the genuine chemistry and good acting between the leads (Peppard, Benedict, and Dwight Schultz in particular who pretty much stole the show in every episode). I can pop in an episode anytime and always enjoy it. KNIGHT RIDER, which used to be my absolute favorite, on the other hand I have to be in the mood for.

All in the Family is a classic, no doubt. I can always sit down and watch it for a bit. I think Steve Carell's character in The Office just may be the modern equivalent of Archie Bunker. So maybe you can make shows like that still?

Knight Rider hasn't held up for me at all, nor sadly, The A-Team. Stephen Cannell wrote brilliant dialogue on my favorite TV series of all time, The Rockford Files, but I guess it's not enough on the A-Team. James Garner was probably my favorite actor too, not so much Mr. T.

[ZelenskyTheValiant (Ivan)]

I hated all those shows (especially Roseanne - oh God how I hated Roseanne!). I also hated the A-Team and All In The Family.

We're absolutely on the same page about ROSEANNE. I just couldn't stand her cackle and never understood why that show was a ratings hit or lasted as long as it did. If I wanted to watch a dysfunctional family I'd rather tune into MARRIED... WITH CHILDREN. While raunchy, at least that show was legit funny!

But I totally disagree with you on ALL IN THE FAMILY. It's pretty much the greatest sitcom ever and whenever it comes on I can't help but sit down and watch it. Archie Bunker was a riot!! "Dingbat" Edith? "Meathead" Michael? Little Goil? Hilarious show! Couldn't be made today. Everyone is too serious and easily offended.

THE A-TEAM is an 80s classic! In fact I'd say that along with MPI it's the other action/adventure show from the 80s that has really held up and doesn't come across as cheesy as some of the others. I think it's mostly due to some of the memorable dialogue written by Stephen J. Cannell's team for the 4 leads and the genuine chemistry and good acting between the leads (Peppard, Benedict, and Dwight Schultz in particular who pretty much stole the show in every episode). I can pop in an episode anytime and always enjoy it. KNIGHT RIDER, which used to be my absolute favorite, on the other hand I have to be in the mood for.

All in the Family is a classic, no doubt. I can always sit down and watch it for a bit. I think Steve Carell's character in The Office just may be the modern equivalent of Archie Bunker. So maybe you can make shows like that still?

Knight Rider hasn't held up for me at all, nor sadly, The A-Team. Stephen Cannell wrote brilliant dialogue on my favorite TV series of all time, The Rockford Files, but I guess it's not enough on the A-Team. James Garner was probably my favorite actor too, not so much Mr. T.

I couldn't get into THE OFFICE. I don't really find that brand of humor funny. Too dry or whatever. Needs some heart and soul. But I have a cousin who thinks it's the greatest thing since sliced bread so go figure. That said, I do work in an office and I loved the movie OFFICE SPACE.

ROCKFORD of course was probably the best written show at the time. No doubt about it. Garner was superb in delivering all that golden dialogue! Different can of beans from THE A-TEAM. But the latter had some great and funny dialogue too, just different.

[MaximRecoil]

I heard many good things about it, and your description of it as a "big-screen feature movie weekly on your TV" is exactly why I think the critics have described more recent programming as a new golden age of television.

The problem with modern shows like that, for me, is that it's not a "big-screen feature movie weekly on your TV", it's a 13-hour long movie split into 13 parts (or however many episodes they try to pass off as a "season" these days). I know of no story arc that can properly fuel a 13-hour movie, which means there's going to be a lot of filler, i.e., the plot gets advanced at a snail's pace. You also never get an episode that's on a completely different topic because each one is always tied to the season-long arc. For me, they can be interesting to watch once, but they have no replay value whatsoever. The thought of starting over on a tedious filler-filled climb to get to the conclusion of a 13-hour-long story arc, is very unappealing.

I prefer the episodic nature of the older TV shows, as each episode is more or less self-contained. For my favorite shows, such as MPI, The Dukes of Hazzard, Star Trek (original series), etc., I find myself in the mood to rewatch them once every few years. I've never been in the mood to rewatch a modern serial-format show, not once, not ever. They are a never-ending string of "to be continued" episodes.