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Never Again ... Never Again (1.7)
Moderator: Styles Bitchley
- Agatha
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This is one of my favorites, too, Bathurstfan! It really drew me in as well. Maybe because I've never really been able to get my brain around the Holecaust. It was so incredible...so unbelievable...that it could have happened. And so insidious that this nice, elderly couple were not at all what they seemed. Another example of Thomas's character and what a strong sense of right and wrong he has. And some early good chemistry between Thomas and Higgins. Just a great episode all around but deeper and more...hmmm...important (?) than some. You're right...classic is a good word.
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
Isn't the ocean beautiful at sunset? So soft....so peaceful...so romantic!
Totally agree!! Classic!Agatha wrote:This is one of my favorites, too, Bathurstfan! It really drew me in as well. Maybe because I've never really been able to get my brain around the Holecaust. It was so incredible...so unbelievable...that it could have happened. And so insidious that this nice, elderly couple were not at all what they seemed. Another example of Thomas's character and what a strong sense of right and wrong he has. And some early good chemistry between Thomas and Higgins. Just a great episode all around but deeper and more...hmmm...important (?) than some. You're right...classic is a good word.
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"It was more ironic than a Robin Masters novel--she thought he was dead, he thought she was dead...and only the chauffeur knew the truth! He should have been the butler!" "Lest We Forget"
- Visiting Stewardess
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Just watched this episode and have to say that I agree with the "suicide camp". She says, "Yes, it is finally over" with such a determined voice and grimace that I am sure she committed suicide with the scalpel.
But at the same time this scene made me wonder: who is steering the boat in the marina when Saul has just had a heart attack and Lena is leaning over him????
But at the same time this scene made me wonder: who is steering the boat in the marina when Saul has just had a heart attack and Lena is leaning over him????
- ZelenskyTheValiant (Ivan)
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Of course the first thing you ask yourself is what the heck are Nazis doing in Hawaii? Heck, even Magnum couldn't help but ask Lena that question.
But it seems like every show at the time had to have a Nazi story (HAWAII FIVE-0 had at least 2 of them) so it was MPI's turn.
That said, I love this episode! It's in my TOP 4 of the season - alongside the pilot, "No Need to Know", and "Skin Deep". And the twist I totally did not see coming! Right up there with "Skin Deep" and S3's "Black on White" when it comes to best plot twists!
Now I just need to watch the last 2 of the season - "J. Digger Doyle" and "Beauty Knows No Pain" and I'll be done with the first season.
As for the dispute about the ending... it's true... I felt a bit cheated in that there was this huge build-up to some shocking conclusion and then... nothing. Was she shot? Did she commit suicide? Based on what was presented I have to believe that she gave up. She did say "It's over" and with Saul dead she really had nothing left to fight for. Though a point could be made that she also had nothing left to live for. In any case, Magnum shooting an old frail woman wielding a measly scalpel sounds gratuitous. He's a combat vet - he can take her no problem. Plus, there was no gunshot. So the 2 remaining possibilities are that she either committed suicide or gave up. I go with the "gave up" option since we don't actually see her taking her life nor is it mentioned at any point that she killed herself. As for Magnum being upset at the end by the tidal pool... well that's natural. He doesn't have to witness a suicide to feel upset. I mean a sweet grandmotherly old lady and her equally grandfatherly husband (who were long-time friends of Mag's) just turned out to be murderous, throat-slitting Nazis. Who wouldn't be shaken up by a revelation like that?
![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
But it seems like every show at the time had to have a Nazi story (HAWAII FIVE-0 had at least 2 of them) so it was MPI's turn.
That said, I love this episode! It's in my TOP 4 of the season - alongside the pilot, "No Need to Know", and "Skin Deep". And the twist I totally did not see coming! Right up there with "Skin Deep" and S3's "Black on White" when it comes to best plot twists!
Now I just need to watch the last 2 of the season - "J. Digger Doyle" and "Beauty Knows No Pain" and I'll be done with the first season.
As for the dispute about the ending... it's true... I felt a bit cheated in that there was this huge build-up to some shocking conclusion and then... nothing. Was she shot? Did she commit suicide? Based on what was presented I have to believe that she gave up. She did say "It's over" and with Saul dead she really had nothing left to fight for. Though a point could be made that she also had nothing left to live for. In any case, Magnum shooting an old frail woman wielding a measly scalpel sounds gratuitous. He's a combat vet - he can take her no problem. Plus, there was no gunshot. So the 2 remaining possibilities are that she either committed suicide or gave up. I go with the "gave up" option since we don't actually see her taking her life nor is it mentioned at any point that she killed herself. As for Magnum being upset at the end by the tidal pool... well that's natural. He doesn't have to witness a suicide to feel upset. I mean a sweet grandmotherly old lady and her equally grandfatherly husband (who were long-time friends of Mag's) just turned out to be murderous, throat-slitting Nazis. Who wouldn't be shaken up by a revelation like that?
quite honestly, for me the biggest plot twist is Michelle being alive. It becomes maybe the most powerful undercurrent of his character the rest of the series. He suddenly goes from immature man child to something iconic. Their backstory and then future storylines shaped the series and character......IMO. The buddy formula is wonderful, but on its' own the series would've lost steam long before it did. We in some way, maybe subconsciously, wanted and knew they would meet again and maybe Thomas would get back the love of his life........but the writers cleverly worked in a new husband and ultimately Lily.J.J. Walters wrote:Best plot twist of the entire series!
I will say this though, this episode was a microcosm of why I loved this show. You never knew when the standard good guy/bad guy serial drama formula would be flipped upside down. The episodes weren't merely stand alone adventures, they tied to each other in some way, some smaller, some bigger than others. We see the furhter development of the Magnum/Higgins relationship as a result of this.........and this was a further building block from the Need to Know episode.
I'm confused about one thing. Maybe someone could clear it up for me. When Magnum and Rick find the body of Dr. Kessler with his throat slashed, Rick suggests that the Mossad agents did it. But it's not until a minute or so later that Magnum realizes that Lena and Saul are the real Nazis and that until this insight the two guys who had whisked Saul away in the ambulance and later penetrated the grounds of Robin's Nest were assumed to be Nazis themselves. So why did Rick call them Mossad?
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Fantastic episode, very well written, but some things backfire in my opiinion.
1) I couldn't for a moment believe those two Mossad agents were Nazis. They hardly looked like Nazis and one of them was even called Reuben, for goodness sake!
2) Have you ever heard of a Nazi called Saul Greenberg? Sure, he could be using a false name, but his wife calls him Saul in private. And he couldn't look more Jewish if he was wearing a skull cap. The actor seems to be actually Jewish. In any case he's the least Nazi-looking person I've seen in my life.
Also, when they mention the Mossad, instead of pronouncing it as such, they say something that sounds like "the Massadah team". I don't know if they made up a fictional organization in order not to involve the actual Mossad. And when Magnum is explaining what the organization do he says something like "an organization that chases Nazis", or something like that instead of the more straightforward "the Israeli secret service". Again maybe they did that in order to disguise it.
1) I couldn't for a moment believe those two Mossad agents were Nazis. They hardly looked like Nazis and one of them was even called Reuben, for goodness sake!
2) Have you ever heard of a Nazi called Saul Greenberg? Sure, he could be using a false name, but his wife calls him Saul in private. And he couldn't look more Jewish if he was wearing a skull cap. The actor seems to be actually Jewish. In any case he's the least Nazi-looking person I've seen in my life.
Also, when they mention the Mossad, instead of pronouncing it as such, they say something that sounds like "the Massadah team". I don't know if they made up a fictional organization in order not to involve the actual Mossad. And when Magnum is explaining what the organization do he says something like "an organization that chases Nazis", or something like that instead of the more straightforward "the Israeli secret service". Again maybe they did that in order to disguise it.
Re: Never Again ... Never Again (1.7)
Great episode. one of the best of the entire series with a sensational turn of events.
Here are some locations I've found
The Saul's shirt shop is located at 3573 Waialae Avenue:
![Image](http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/9837/elwc.jpg)
now
![Image](http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/9519/y6w6.jpg)
The shop is in front of the famous Queen Theater. The theater opened on June 29 1936 but actually is looking sad.
![Image](http://imageshack.us/a/img196/7136/zaua.jpg)
now
![Image](http://imageshack.us/a/img9/9254/35mu.jpg)
At the hospital Lena said that her home address was Lenai Street, but this is a fictional address.
The real address is '3759 Maunaloa Avenue'
![Image](http://imageshack.us/a/img42/5493/obgr.jpg)
now
![Image](http://imageshack.us/a/img811/4510/i5xr.jpg)
The house of dr Kessler is located at 4461 Kahala avenue (look at the leaning tree near the entrance)
![Image](http://imageshack.us/a/img811/6098/wgrn.jpg)
![Image](http://imageshack.us/a/img842/2857/my3k.jpg)
now
![Image](http://imageshack.us/a/img543/5708/4sed.jpg)
Here are some locations I've found
The Saul's shirt shop is located at 3573 Waialae Avenue:
![Image](http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/9837/elwc.jpg)
now
![Image](http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/9519/y6w6.jpg)
The shop is in front of the famous Queen Theater. The theater opened on June 29 1936 but actually is looking sad.
![Image](http://imageshack.us/a/img196/7136/zaua.jpg)
now
![Image](http://imageshack.us/a/img9/9254/35mu.jpg)
At the hospital Lena said that her home address was Lenai Street, but this is a fictional address.
The real address is '3759 Maunaloa Avenue'
![Image](http://imageshack.us/a/img42/5493/obgr.jpg)
now
![Image](http://imageshack.us/a/img811/4510/i5xr.jpg)
The house of dr Kessler is located at 4461 Kahala avenue (look at the leaning tree near the entrance)
![Image](http://imageshack.us/a/img811/6098/wgrn.jpg)
![Image](http://imageshack.us/a/img842/2857/my3k.jpg)
now
![Image](http://imageshack.us/a/img543/5708/4sed.jpg)
Re: Never Again ... Never Again (1.7)
Magnum wears these polo shirts for the first time in the show:
![Image](http://imageshack.us/a/img5/967/62pv.jpg)
![Image](http://imageshack.us/a/img198/6913/dyib.jpg)
![Image](http://imageshack.us/a/img5/967/62pv.jpg)
![Image](http://imageshack.us/a/img198/6913/dyib.jpg)
Re: Never Again ... Never Again (1.7)
I believe that is considered a rugby shirt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_shirt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_shirt
- Styles Bitchley
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Re: Never Again ... Never Again (1.7)
That's some Rubber Chicken-worthy sleuthing Kudu Buck. Nice job!Kudu buck wrote:Here are some locations I've found
"How fiendishly deceptive of you Magnum. I could have sworn I was hearing the emasculation of a large rodent."
- J.Q.H.
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Re: Never Again ... Never Again (1.7)
Those fake night scenes are painfully bad. I can't believe they didn't bother to actually shoot at night. It's the kind of stuff you would expect to see in an Ed Wood movie.
Re: Never Again ... Never Again (1.7)
There was DEFINITELY a gun shot heard at the end of this episode. When Elena confronts Magnum at the end with the scalpal. It switched to the exterior boat scene just before the gun went off. WHY the dvds don't have this AND it has been erased from future broadcasts I can only surmise to soften the image of Tom. But I know for a fact this was heard here. This scene and the scene where Magnum kills Ivan are two of the GREATEST justices in TV show history in my opinion.
- J.J. Walters
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Re: Never Again ... Never Again (1.7)
Interesting Ronbo, very interesting! The way the scene was filmed (with the cutaway to the boat) certainly lends itself to a gunshot. Still though, Magnum could easily have subdued Elena and disarmed her. Perhaps that is why they removed the sound of the shot? ![Wink ;)](./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
![Wink ;)](./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
Higgins: It's not a scratch! It's a bloody gouge!