No More Mr. Nice Guy (4.13)

[Little Garwood]

I hate everything about the Carol Baldwin character ! From her relentless lies/manipulation to her fake "drunk acting", her ridiculous greying poodle hair and her justification of her behaviour when her lies were discovered with TM does the same.

This reminds me why I detest any episode with her in it so much.

Now I feel better for having got that off my chest.

Great post. I also loathe Carol. Kathleen Lloyd was so good as Bridget Archer in Almost Home, but I think her wonderful first appearance is a “false positive”, given Lloyd’s subsequent performances as Carol.

In the “Most Annoying Characters” thread, a couple of Magnum Maniacs awkwardly but amusingly defend their 1980s fashion missteps during which our esteemed Magnum Mania colleagues apparently wore Carol Baldwin-style wardrobes and hairstyles. Most people would laugh off their youthful indiscretions, but these Magnum Maniacs doubled down on their poor choices, making their defense of it all the more amusing.

[charybdis1966]

Great post. I also loathe Carol.....but these Magnum Maniacs doubled down on their poor choices, making their defense of it all the more amusing.

This is my third skate through MPI (the first was on it's original run in the '80s, the second when I found this site and saw it on reruns in the 2010's) and was wondering whether my attitude to Baldwin has mellowed with my advancing years, like it has with the character of Agatha.

NO !

I still feel sick when I see her guest starring caption (after the show stopped using Patty McCormack) on any episode and consider switching off and watching something else.

[Wilson_MacLeish]

This is one of my least favorite episodes, since Carol’s manipulation is way above and beyond any that TM does.
His little manipulations aren’t so contrived. I know after all these years it shouldn’t make me mad, but really… calling Higgins, Rick and TC and lying?
I agree with another poster that this was lazy writing. And I could never forget what Carol did, and it soured me towards her character for the rest of the series. I would have preferred to see TM make the game and have a good mystery to solve during the visit.

I agree wholeheartedly!

[Wilson_MacLeish]

I saw this last night and noticed on this thread that I gave it my worst score ever (6 - pretty bad) when I re-watched this 10 years ago but I didn't comment, so I'll remedy that now:

I hate everything about the Carol Baldwin character ! From her relentless lies/manipulation to her fake "drunk acting", her ridiculous greying poodle hair and her justification of her behaviour when her lies were discovered with TM does the same.

This reminds me why I detest any episode with her in it so much.

Now I feel better for having got that off my chest.

Well said. I feel the same way myself! The Carol Baldwin character was a big detriment to the show. If you watch Selleck's appearances on David Letterman from that era, he always makes self-deprecating jokes about "when Magnum was hot" and about how Cosby is beating them, etc. It's frustrating that they never thought about going back to what worked so well in the first 3 seasons, or that newer additions like the Carol Baldwin character were turning people off instead of expanding their audience. Magnum was far more beloved for episodes like 'No Need To Know' or 'J. Digger Doyle' (if you want strong female characters) than for episodes like 'No More Mr. Nice Guy'.

[Pahonu]

I saw this last night and noticed on this thread that I gave it my worst score ever (6 - pretty bad) when I re-watched this 10 years ago but I didn't comment, so I'll remedy that now:

I hate everything about the Carol Baldwin character ! From her relentless lies/manipulation to her fake "drunk acting", her ridiculous greying poodle hair and her justification of her behaviour when her lies were discovered with TM does the same.

This reminds me why I detest any episode with her in it so much.

Now I feel better for having got that off my chest.

Well said. I feel the same way myself! The Carol Baldwin character was a big detriment to the show. If you watch Selleck's appearances on David Letterman from that era, he always makes self-deprecating jokes about "when Magnum was hot" and about how Cosby is beating them, etc. It's frustrating that they never thought about going back to what worked so well in the first 3 seasons, or that newer additions like the Carol Baldwin character were turning people off instead of expanding their audience. Magnum was far more beloved for episodes like 'No Need To Know' or 'J. Digger Doyle' (if you want strong female characters) than for episodes like 'No More Mr. Nice Guy'.

To start, I’m not a big fan of the episode either, but it didn’t turn me off completely to the Carol character. TM used all his friends incredibly often so he seemed to get a little comeuppance in this one, I suppose. I also recall reading when the show was still on the air that Bellisario and the other producers made a conscious decision to add in regular female characters. Even before Cosby, according the Neilson data, they were losing the female viewers by the second season. Watching just to see Selleck with his shirt off wasn’t holding on to the female demographic. So I understand their decision making even if we don’t all agree with it. This was an era of just three networks and mass appeal was king. There weren’t all the niche show choices we have now. By the way, my favorite season is the first, hands down.

I also think it’s really hard to keep a TV series with that many episodes per season fresh and interesting. Many dramas today don’t come close to 22 episodes per season. Just a little more than a decade before MPI debuted, the network standard was 26. That was on a typical 7 day shooting schedule per episode. It was part of Selleck’s initial decision to leave. Being the lead, he was working 70-80 hours a week for seven years. He only agreed to a shortened season eight and the network jumped at it.

I would also add, that I often see comments about “the writers” on the show. It’s important to remember that at that time, and with that pace of shooting, there wasn’t a set of writers like a comedy show typically has and many dramas have today. There were dozens of writers for the show over the years. Many episodes were written by a writer who had no other writing credit on the show. This is how it was done to keep the pace of shooting necessary. These spec scripts were submitted and polished up to provide some sense of continuity based on the series “bible”. There’s a thread somewhere here about the number of writers. Younger viewers, used to modern cohesive story arcs, are often not aware that this was the standard for the era and it produced very different results.

Edit:
I revisited the writing credits on IMDB. There are 63 different contributors to the series’ 158 episodes, so those are “the writers”. Further, there are only six who contributed to 10 or more episodes, and that’s really just five because Glen Larson is one of them. He never wrote a single episode. He got that credit because he was part of creating the series. Here’s the really important number that I was describing above. Fully 39 people had just one writing credit! That interestingly, includes Selleck and Mosley who wrote one each, the fantastic series “final” from season 7 by Selleck, and Missing Melody by Mosley. Bellisario’s wife Deborah Pratt wrote two episodes. If you’re a credit watcher, as I am, many of the other names on the list are familiar to me because they were Hollywood writers of the era who contributed to many series over the years.

Not to go too off topic, but the same is true for the directors of the series, as was the norm back then. There are 47 different directors with just four doing 10 or more and 19 directing just one.

[Wilson_MacLeish]

This idea that 22 episodes is a lot and it's hard to keep up with ideas is such a modern excuse. It was the norm for decades. This modern era of 6-8 episode seasons of shows has made everyone soft. Simply adding women to a show has never worked to hold female attention. Magnum was never conceived as a mass appealing show. It had a clear demo and even the network misunderstood that when they promoted the pilot as "Magnum's a man who loves fast cars & slow blondes". They sure weren't worried about mass appeal when they gave it the green light in 1980. Now obviously, as a show goes on, it needs to maintain its audience and look for ways to expand on it, but that's always going to be done by telling compelling stories. Women like good stories just as much as men do.

As far as characters that are relatable to a female audience, Christine Belford's Adelaide was a great example of a female guest character who didn't take over the show by being obnoxious, irritating, bossy, etc. but provided a means to show a female audience how compassionate and tender Magnum could be while still heroically solving the crime. Another one that worked well was Cathy Shiriff's Erin Wolfe. Again, a non-obnoxious, nuanced character with a compelling "descent into madness" character arc, and a strong resolve. Women are fascinated by that type of story.

My point is that no audience needs or likes to be pandered to. Give them something substantive, and they'll come back everytime. Try to placate them, and watch them look for the exits.

[Luther's nephew Dobie]

The Carol character was pretty much shoe-horned in in order to boost female ratings. You know, "strong female character", will they/will they not love interest and all that jazz.

With the eye candy on this show, you don't need to shoehorn ill-fitting characters, cute kids, potential marriage etc. in to get female ratings... trust me.
I'm not much of a Carol fan in general but in this episode she's really low down to the gang.

K Hale,
"With the eye candy on this show you don't need to shoehorn ill-fitting characters, cute kids, potential marriage etc. in to get female ratings... trust me."

It's a given the cast of Magnum PI is attractive to the ladies - no doubt you include Luther Gillis as well - so I have always wondered as to why Magnum Mania doesn't attract more female members.
A woman's point of view would be helpful in pointing out things we men might miss.
As in our own lives, without women we'd spend every weekend in the house walking around unshaven in our shorts, watching ballgames, scratching ourselves and doing that most perplexing of all activities
to the fairer sex, laughing at the 3 Stooges. Or so I have been repeatedly, endlessly, assured.

PS - I have yet to meet a female fan of Moe, Larry and Curly. Shemp yes, the man was a hunk.

[Pahonu]

This idea that 22 episodes is a lot and it's hard to keep up with ideas is such a modern excuse. It was the norm for decades. This modern era of 6-8 episode seasons of shows has made everyone soft. Simply adding women to a show has never worked to hold female attention. Magnum was never conceived as a mass appealing show. It had a clear demo and even the network misunderstood that when they promoted the pilot as "Magnum's a man who loves fast cars & slow blondes". They sure weren't worried about mass appeal when they gave it the green light in 1980. Now obviously, as a show goes on, it needs to maintain its audience and look for ways to expand on it, but that's always going to be done by telling compelling stories. Women like good stories just as much as men do.

As far as characters that are relatable to a female audience, Christine Belford's Adelaide was a great example of a female guest character who didn't take over the show by being obnoxious, irritating, bossy, etc. but provided a means to show a female audience how compassionate and tender Magnum could be while still heroically solving the crime. Another one that worked well was Cathy Shiriff's Erin Wolfe. Again, a non-obnoxious, nuanced character with a compelling "descent into madness" character arc, and a strong resolve. Women are fascinated by that type of story.

My point is that no audience needs or likes to be pandered to. Give them something substantive, and they'll come back everytime. Try to placate them, and watch them look for the exits.

I worked in TV production in the early 90’s, very shortly after MPI ended, and the pace of production was intense, no matter what you feel about it 30 years later. Calling it an excuse may be your current feeling, but the script turnover was remarkably quick in that era, and the need for spec writers was completely necessary given the timeline demands.

As far as adding women to the series, I was simply referring to the producer’s goals as I read about them in that period. I would also add that there was no series that was not concerned with mass appeal in the 1980’s, the era of just three networks. To think otherwise is simply not accurate and based on current thinking. I don’t necessarily agree with all the decisions made regarding the series, but to dismiss them based on modern arguments is simply incorrect.

[ZelenskyTheValiant (Ivan)]

Just a little more than a decade before MPI debuted, the network standard was 26. That was on a typical 7 day shooting schedule per episode.

And just a decade before the 26 episode standard it was 39 episodes per season!!! Just check out BONANZA in its early years or any other western or drama or comedy at the time. That's like working all year round without any breaks! Crazy schedule and somehow the actors roughed it out. Heck, BONANZA went on to last 14 seasons and the only actor who departed prematurely was Pernell Roberts. Or GUNSMOKE which ran for a whopping 20 seasons (unheard of at that time).

Just rewatched this episode again. It's not as bad as people make it out. Nor is Carol unbearable or unwatchable. Yes she duped and used our guys. So what? Not the end of the world. Like she says, Magnum does it on a regular basis. Kathleen Lloyd is fine and her character is fine. People who say the show's ratings went down because of her make me laugh. She appeared in how many episodes per season? One or two? Was she in every episode? Nope. How about the show's ratings went down because by the 4th or 5th season the novelty of the show wore off (as is the case with anything out there) and new shows like COSBY and MIAMI VICE and the rise of NBC in general put a dent in MPI's popularity. Trust me, hardcore fans were still watching and Carol appearing once or twice a season would not make them abandon ship. That's really stretching it.

[Pahonu]

Just a little more than a decade before MPI debuted, the network standard was 26. That was on a typical 7 day shooting schedule per episode.

And just a decade before the 26 episode standard it was 39 episodes per season!!! Just check out BONANZA in its early years or any other western or drama or comedy at the time. That's like working all year round without any breaks! Crazy schedule and somehow the actors roughed it out. Heck, BONANZA went on to last 14 seasons and the only actor who departed prematurely was Pernell Roberts. Or GUNSMOKE which ran for a whopping 20 seasons (unheard of at that time).

James Garner commented on the insane shooting schedule when he was on Maverick, which was close to Bonanza in its debut, just a year or two earlier I believe. It’s why Warner Bros. alternated episode focus between Brett and Bart, and later added Beau. Bonanza had four main characters and episodes focused more or less on each of them. A series like MPI or Rockford where the lead is in 80-90% of scenes is a different animal entirely.

[ZelenskyTheValiant (Ivan)]

Just a little more than a decade before MPI debuted, the network standard was 26. That was on a typical 7 day shooting schedule per episode.

And just a decade before the 26 episode standard it was 39 episodes per season!!! Just check out BONANZA in its early years or any other western or drama or comedy at the time. That's like working all year round without any breaks! Crazy schedule and somehow the actors roughed it out. Heck, BONANZA went on to last 14 seasons and the only actor who departed prematurely was Pernell Roberts. Or GUNSMOKE which ran for a whopping 20 seasons (unheard of at that time).

James Garner commented on the insane shooting schedule when he was on Maverick, which was close to Bonanza in its debut, just a year or two earlier I believe. It’s why Warner Bros. alternated episode focus between Brett and Bart, and later added Beau. Bonanza had four main characters and episodes focused more or less on each of them. A series like MPI or Rockford where the lead is in 80-90% of scenes is a different animal entirely.

While it's true that on Bonanza in many episodes one or two of the Cartwrights would take center stage, there were many episodes where all 4 were equally involved. And then there's Gunsmoke where I'm sure Marshall Dillon took center stage in pretty much every episode. It was very much James Arness' show for all 20 seasons, even if some episodes may have been Chester-centric or Doc-centric or Kitty-centric.

[Pahonu]

Just a little more than a decade before MPI debuted, the network standard was 26. That was on a typical 7 day shooting schedule per episode.

And just a decade before the 26 episode standard it was 39 episodes per season!!! Just check out BONANZA in its early years or any other western or drama or comedy at the time. That's like working all year round without any breaks! Crazy schedule and somehow the actors roughed it out. Heck, BONANZA went on to last 14 seasons and the only actor who departed prematurely was Pernell Roberts. Or GUNSMOKE which ran for a whopping 20 seasons (unheard of at that time).

James Garner commented on the insane shooting schedule when he was on Maverick, which was close to Bonanza in its debut, just a year or two earlier I believe. It’s why Warner Bros. alternated episode focus between Brett and Bart, and later added Beau. Bonanza had four main characters and episodes focused more or less on each of them. A series like MPI or Rockford where the lead is in 80-90% of scenes is a different animal entirely.

While it's true that on Bonanza in many episodes one or two of the Cartwrights would take center stage, there were many episodes where all 4 were equally involved. And then there's Gunsmoke where I'm sure Marshall Dillon took center stage in pretty much every episode. It was very much James Arness' show for all 20 seasons, even if some episodes may have been Chester-centric or Doc-centric or Kitty-centric.

This is all true. Bonanza certainly had many episodes with all the actors appearing, but many featured one or the other. Also, Gunsmoke was only a 30 minute series for its first several seasons, I’m thinking six or seven at least.

[ZelenskyTheValiant (Ivan)]

Just a little more than a decade before MPI debuted, the network standard was 26. That was on a typical 7 day shooting schedule per episode.

And just a decade before the 26 episode standard it was 39 episodes per season!!! Just check out BONANZA in its early years or any other western or drama or comedy at the time. That's like working all year round without any breaks! Crazy schedule and somehow the actors roughed it out. Heck, BONANZA went on to last 14 seasons and the only actor who departed prematurely was Pernell Roberts. Or GUNSMOKE which ran for a whopping 20 seasons (unheard of at that time).

James Garner commented on the insane shooting schedule when he was on Maverick, which was close to Bonanza in its debut, just a year or two earlier I believe. It’s why Warner Bros. alternated episode focus between Brett and Bart, and later added Beau. Bonanza had four main characters and episodes focused more or less on each of them. A series like MPI or Rockford where the lead is in 80-90% of scenes is a different animal entirely.

While it's true that on Bonanza in many episodes one or two of the Cartwrights would take center stage, there were many episodes where all 4 were equally involved. And then there's Gunsmoke where I'm sure Marshall Dillon took center stage in pretty much every episode. It was very much James Arness' show for all 20 seasons, even if some episodes may have been Chester-centric or Doc-centric or Kitty-centric.

This is all true. Bonanza certainly had many episodes with all the actors appearing, but many featured one or the other. Also, Gunsmoke was only a 30 minute series for its first several seasons, I’m thinking six or seven at least.

Yep the first 6 seasons of Gunsmoke were 30 minute episodes. The remaining 14 seasons were all 60 mins.