Never Again ... Never Again (1.7)

[J.J. Walters]

Say what you will, but this is one of the best episodes of the entire series! I fail to see what is wrong with hunting down Nazi's who are guilty of egregious war crimes in WWII! Granted, they never explicitly say what they did, but it was obvious they were Nazi sympathizers (and more than likely were involved in killing innocent Jews). It seems pretty clear that they (The Israeli Nazi Hunters) intended to bring Saul and Lena back for trial. Saul suffered a heart attack and Lena killed herself with a scalpel. What's the big deal?

[marlboro]

Not a big deal on a tv show. The real world big deal is that a country shouldn't allow a foreign nation to kidnap its citizens. If Iran thinks Salman Rushdie deserves to be killed, I don't like the idea of them slipping into the country and kidnapping him. If the Vietnamese think American soldiers committed a massacre, I don't like the idea of them kidnapping Americans and putting them on trial. We have extradition treaties for a reason.


Roper: So now you'd give the Devil benefit of law!
More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
Roper: I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you — where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country's planted thick with laws from coast to coast — man's laws, not God's — and if you cut them down — and you're just the man to do it — d'you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake.

[K Hale]

To compare it to another Magnum episode, what if the Kenyan government kidnapped Higgins and put him on trial for what his troops did during the uprising? "BUT HIGGINS WAS INNOCENT THOUGH!" Which is exactly my point. We are a nation of laws. If we can't, or worse won't, protect our citizens even to the extent of giving them a trial before letting them get dragged off to a foreign country, then what's the point?

What a great idea for a two-parter!! So much could be done with this. Especially since 1) Higgins was not a US citizen and 2) he himself asked to be court martialed for what happened (I presume his own offense, if any, would be something like losing control of his troops or dereliction of duty or something like that) and tied it into being unable to pay a debt, suggesting a sense of residual guilt. The gang could fly over there and try to bust him out. Maybe he'd refuse to go. Bibi Kirimani could return. An MI6 agent could get involved and clash with Magnum. Should it conclude with courtroom drama or a daring escape? SO MUCH POTENTIAL.

[KingKC]

Not a big deal on a tv show. The real world big deal is that a country shouldn't allow a foreign nation to kidnap its citizens. If Iran thinks Salman Rushdie deserves to be killed, I don't like the idea of them slipping into the country and kidnapping him. If the Vietnamese think American soldiers committed a massacre, I don't like the idea of them kidnapping Americans and putting them on trial. We have extradition treaties for a reason.


Roper: So now you'd give the Devil benefit of law!
More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
Roper: I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you — where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country's planted thick with laws from coast to coast — man's laws, not God's — and if you cut them down — and you're just the man to do it — d'you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake.

I tend to think the Holocaust resulted in somewhat of an exception to the rules of law. It was a systematic extermination of a race during a World War. My Lai and Salmon Rushdie simply don't compare in my book. Granted the concept of extradition is valid but I see justice being done sometimes without due process. Just an opinion.

[☨magnum.t]

Seems like there is always differences in the Magnumverse and ours, we have to accept that. Its obviously not our own reality and laws could very well differ slightly than what we have here. Remember quantum leap was going to do a crossover? My take is that its the exact same as how the US uses the CIA. We have agents all over the world and we capture and KILL citizens of other countries all the time for various threats and crimes. What is right and wrong in our world is so subjective. Our laws in the west differ from laws of the middle east. You better believe we have agents in Pakistan right now doing not so nice things to not so nice people. Does Pakistan know who they are? probably not. Is it against their laws, for sure, but that's not going to stop us from doing the "right" thing.

[marlboro]

So we shouldn't be bothered by countries kidnapping our citizens as long as they are accused of being Nazis?

How would the actions of the Israeli agents have been views if the twist at the end was that the old couple weren't Nazis?

Allied countries have extradition treaties - use them. If a criminal is being harbored by a hostile foreign power, you may have to TCB via other means. Just don't expect citizens of that country to be happy you are doing so without their permission.

[☨magnum.t]

This seems to be a question of citizenship more than anything, kidnapping American citizens would obviously be wrong even for the right reasons but these two were not citizens. Lena and Saul were illegal refugees posing as citizens under fake names and identities. If I recall they did not immigrate to the US as German citizens under their German names they came as refugees escaping the Holocaust. So being neither a US or Israeli citizen it would come down to international law and the red tape that comes with that would probably be longer than Lena and Saul's remaining lifespan anyway. Situation dependent, I'm with the Mossad on this one. Other situations might be different. I agree we have laws for very good reasons but I'll also argue a lot of times those laws suck. And if it turned out that the sweet old couple were not in fact Nazis, I do believe Magnum would have dished out punishment to the Israeli agents.

[thechickinthemiddle]

This seems to be a question of citizenship more than anything, kidnapping American citizens would obviously be wrong even for the right reasons but these two were not citizens. Lena and Saul were illegal refugees posing as citizens under fake names and identities. If I recall they did not immigrate to the US as German citizens under their German names they came as refugees escaping the Holocaust. So being neither a US or Israeli citizen it would come down to international law and the red tape that comes with that would probably be longer than Lena and Saul's remaining lifespan anyway. Situation dependent, I'm with the Mossad on this one. Other situations might be different. I agree we have laws for very good reasons but I'll also argue a lot of times those laws suck. And if it turned out that the sweet old couple were not in fact Nazis, I do believe Magnum would have dished out punishment to the Israeli agents.

Adding to that, Dr. Kessler's methods of finding Saul and Lena would have raised anyone's suspicions given how suddenly they went missing. And while the episode (IIRC) didn't explicitly mention how much red tape would have been involved had Kessler gone through the legal channels, though as you've mentioned, it would likely take forever. Trials of Nazi war criminals have continued to pretty much the present day, but in their old photo, Saul and Lena are by no means young.

[Mad Kudu Buck]

Yes, bring us your tired, your weak, and nazi war criminals! By any chance, are you wearing a brown shirt?

Yeah, you probably would! Any body who agrees with, or condones mad kudu buck's statement, should be ashamed of themselves!

What the...? So you think that anybody who agrees with following US and international law should be ashamed, but allowing foreigners to illegally kidnap, drug and possibly kill US citizens is perfectly fine? How interesting.

[f14peter]

This seems to be a question of citizenship more than anything, kidnapping American citizens would obviously be wrong even for the right reasons but these two were not citizens. Lena and Saul were illegal refugees posing as citizens under fake names and identities. If I recall they did not immigrate to the US as German citizens under their German names they came as refugees escaping the Holocaust. So being neither a US or Israeli citizen it would come down to international law and the red tape that comes with that would probably be longer than Lena and Saul's remaining lifespan anyway. Situation dependent, I'm with the Mossad on this one. Other situations might be different. I agree we have laws for very good reasons but I'll also argue a lot of times those laws suck. And if it turned out that the sweet old couple were not in fact Nazis, I do believe Magnum would have dished out punishment to the Israeli agents.

Yes, bring us your tired, your weak, and nazi war criminals! By any chance, are you wearing a brown shirt?

Yeah, you probably would! Any body who agrees with, or condones mad kudu buck's statement, should be ashamed of themselves!

What the...? So you think that anybody who agrees with following US and international law should be ashamed, but allowing foreigners to illegally kidnap, drug and possibly kill US citizens is perfectly fine? How interesting.

Many valid points about international law and extradition treaties and agreements and such made here. However, I believe they're irrelevant to this topic.

Israel has a long, loooooooooong history of conducting any manner of "operations" (sabotage, kidnapping, assassination, even military operations) anyplace and anywhere they feel it's necessary, with little regard to the aforementioned legalities and respect for sovereignty of other nations. They went after the Munich terrorists no matter where in the world the terrorists were ... they conducted two well known air raids into the sovereign airspace of Tunis and Iraq to drop bombs on a PLO HQ and a nuclear powerplant ... Eichmann was snatched in an operation suitable for an I Spy or Mission: Impossible script, fully without the knowledge of Argentine authorities ... they even landed a sizable military force and temporarily took temporary control of the international airport of another sovereign nation ... the list goes on.

Point being: Israel has a "we don't care about sovereignty when it comes to national security and bringing war criminals and terrorist to Israeli justice". Thus, I found the conduct of the Mossad agents to be completely "within character", as it were, in essence SOP for them. Doubtless the agents knowingly were operating in a "sanitary" condition so their government could technically disavow complicity ... again, SOP.

[☨magnum.t]

The topic in question was "Is it right?"(for Israel to covertly extradite) not why they did it or how many times or in how many countries. Some said yes it was, others said no it was not, but we all agreed Israel did it and probably still does.

[Mad Kudu Buck]

Welcome to Magnum Mania, f14peter. I zoomed in on your avatar. Is that... alternate universe Spock as Magnum shooting Ivan?

[f14peter]

Welcome to Magnum Mania, f14peter. I zoomed in on your avatar. Is that... alternate universe Spock as Magnum shooting Ivan?

Yes indeed. I also have nice Mirror Spock/Josey Wales avatar I roll out on occasion

[ENSHealy]

I don't like the idea of foreign countries slipping agents into the USA and kidnapping people.

Turn about is fair play...we didn't fill up Guantanamo using extradition treaties.

[ENSHealy]

1.7 NEVER AGAIN…NEVER AGAIN
Hawaiian shirts: 0
Island Hopper shirts: 1 light yellow with blue logo
Body Count: 5 Saul, Lena, Kessler, Israeli agents
Shirtless: 0
Little Voice: 0
I know what you’re thinking: 0
When I write HTBAWCPI: 0
Investigator corrections: 0
Magnum injuries: 0
Higgins musings: 2
4th wall breaks: 2 Higgins and Magnum
Negotiations: 0
Famous guest stars: 0
Magnumometer: 10

Potential magnumania usernames: Ahi Sushi

The great "it can't be his car" theme is revisited:

Pedicab driver: Hey, brahda. Bet you'd like a ride to Diamond Head. Ten bucks round trip.
Magnum: Ten bucks? No, thanks. I got a car.
Pedicab driver: Them wheels are yours? Come on.

It's interesting to note that the subtitles use British spellings when Higgins is talking. For example "you realised there were no little fish" and "no unauthorised overnight guests".