Kyiv? Where did that come from?

[80s Big Hair]

Until now I was puzzled why Kiev is suddenly now Kyiv and why it is pronounced differently. I figured it was one journalist that decided to change it overnight and the other journalists went with it as they are prone to do so as to seem smart. It's not. Ukraine prefers it that way because it is closer to Ukrainian than Russian. Of course the journalists never had an explanation, preferring to pretend that they have always been spelling and pronouncing it the new way until I found this: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/0 ... torn-name/. Alright. That is acceptable to me. Now if I can get them to pronounce the state "Nevada" the correct American way. Or at least they can be consistent and pronounce all Spanish named places the Spanish way. "Las Vegas" in Nevada would be pronounced differently. Wait until they find out how "Los Angeles, California" is pronounced in Spanish.

I also found out that there is a valid reason for calling Deutschland "Germany" in English.

[Pahonu]

Until now I was puzzled why Kiev is suddenly now Kyiv and why it is pronounced differently. I figured it was one journalist that decided to change it overnight and the other journalists went with it as they are prone to do so as to seem smart. It's not. Ukraine prefers it that way because it is closer to Ukrainian than Russian. Of course the journalists never had an explanation, preferring to pretend that they have always been spelling and pronouncing it the new way until I found this: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/0 ... torn-name/. Alright. That is acceptable to me. Now if I can get them to pronounce the state "Nevada" the correct American way. Or at least they can be consistent and pronounce all Spanish named places the Spanish way. "Las Vegas" in Nevada would be pronounced differently. Wait until they find out how "Los Angeles, California" is pronounced in Spanish.

I also found out that there is a valid reason for calling Deutschland "Germany" in English.

The key to understanding this is to know that both Ukrainian and Russian are written in the Cyrillic alphabet, not the Roman alphabet most of the west is familiar with. Therefore, any spelling in our alphabet is an attempt to recreate the sounds of those spoken languages, which varies by region as you stated, rather than a letter by letter translation. It’s not a news reporter trying to look smart.

The same is true when translating any languages across alphabets, or even more so in the case of languages using pictographs rather than an alphabet, such as Chinese or Japanese. I’ve seen many different spellings for various Asian historical figures in my teaching career. For example, the Chinese Nationalist and first leader of the Kuomintang, was Sun Yat-sen, Chinese (Pinyin) Sun Yixian or (Wade-Giles romanization) Sun I-hsien.

Las Vegas is not actually that far off. Loess ong-hell-es, is very different! Of course, such pronunciation differs from Barcelona to Madrid to the various states of Mexico, just as numerous English accents vary. A funny example in LA is its port neighborhood of San Pedro, pronounced by the largely Latino locals as San Peedro. Go figure.

[Styles Bitchley]

Pahonu is correct. Probably the best example from Chinese is Mao Tse Tung vs Mao Zedong (once pinyin became the favoured style). Lots of examples in Arabic too, with people having the same Arabic name but differently spelled in “English”.

More importantly to know is that it’s the news AGENCY that determines common pronunciations and spellings. Style guides are the bibles of journalists and they stipulate these nuances. (I went to journalism school).

[Styles Bitchley]

Okay, so I should have done some reading before declaring it as just an innocent difference in spelling. Most of my previous comments stand, but I should have known there was more to it. Just like the movement from Wade Giles Chinese spellings to pinyin, it was political in nature. Beijing didn't like that the British had created the anglicized version of their language and forcefully implemented their own version and rejected the old version--and the spelling Mao Tse Tung moved into obscurity.

Historically, Russians asserted a lot of influence in the surrounding regions, including Ukraine, which took on a whole new meaning under the USSR. So Ukrainian independence in the 90s led them to start pushing English media to start using the Ukrainian spellings, rather than the Russian spelling for their cities - which had been the norm in the Soviet era. Now that Russia has invaded, it seems media outlets are asserting their support for Ukraine by using their preferred spelling, rather than the Russian spelling. Pretty interesting, actually. Same goes for the increasingly popular one syllable pronunciation "keev" vs Russian pronunciation "key-ev" - which we're all more accustomed to hearing.

[Pahonu]

Okay, so I should have done some reading before declaring it as just an innocent difference in spelling. Most of my previous comments stand, but I should have known there was more to it. Just like the movement from Wade Giles Chinese spellings to pinyin, it was political in nature. Beijing didn't like that the British had created the anglicized version of their language and forcefully implemented their own version and rejected the old version--and the spelling Mao Tse Tung moved into obscurity.

Historically, Russians asserted a lot of influence in the surrounding regions, including Ukraine, which took on a whole new meaning under the USSR. So Ukrainian independence in the 90s led them to start pushing English media to start using the Ukrainian spellings, rather than the Russian spelling for their cities - which had been the norm in the Soviet era. Now that Russia has invaded, it seems media outlets are asserting their support for Ukraine by using their preferred spelling, rather than the Russian spelling. Pretty interesting, actually. Same goes for the increasingly popular one syllable pronunciation "keev" vs Russian pronunciation "key-ev" - which we're all more accustomed to hearing.

Good analysis!

Which spelling or pronunciation is used almost always has a political component. The dominant cultural group, whether imperialist as in your British example, or the Soviet autocracy favoring Russian, dictates such “official” usage. In extreme cases attempts to end usage entirely are made by banning language.

[Styles Bitchley]

By the way, I blame Ivan for everything.

[80s Big Hair]

Okay, so I should have done some reading before declaring it as just an innocent difference in spelling. Most of my previous comments stand, but I should have known there was more to it. Just like the movement from Wade Giles Chinese spellings to pinyin, it was political in nature. Beijing didn't like that the British had created the anglicized version of their language and forcefully implemented their own version and rejected the old version--and the spelling Mao Tse Tung moved into obscurity.

Historically, Russians asserted a lot of influence in the surrounding regions, including Ukraine, which took on a whole new meaning under the USSR. So Ukrainian independence in the 90s led them to start pushing English media to start using the Ukrainian spellings, rather than the Russian spelling for their cities - which had been the norm in the Soviet era. Now that Russia has invaded, it seems media outlets are asserting their support for Ukraine by using their preferred spelling, rather than the Russian spelling. Pretty interesting, actually. Same goes for the increasingly popular one syllable pronunciation "keev" vs Russian pronunciation "key-ev" - which we're all more accustomed to hearing.

Isn't that what the article that I linked said?

[Pahonu]

Okay, so I should have done some reading before declaring it as just an innocent difference in spelling. Most of my previous comments stand, but I should have known there was more to it. Just like the movement from Wade Giles Chinese spellings to pinyin, it was political in nature. Beijing didn't like that the British had created the anglicized version of their language and forcefully implemented their own version and rejected the old version--and the spelling Mao Tse Tung moved into obscurity.

Historically, Russians asserted a lot of influence in the surrounding regions, including Ukraine, which took on a whole new meaning under the USSR. So Ukrainian independence in the 90s led them to start pushing English media to start using the Ukrainian spellings, rather than the Russian spelling for their cities - which had been the norm in the Soviet era. Now that Russia has invaded, it seems media outlets are asserting their support for Ukraine by using their preferred spelling, rather than the Russian spelling. Pretty interesting, actually. Same goes for the increasingly popular one syllable pronunciation "keev" vs Russian pronunciation "key-ev" - which we're all more accustomed to hearing.

Isn't that what the article that I linked said?

I wasn’t able to view the article, unfortunately.

[Styles Bitchley]

Me neither. Pay wall.

Did you have a different take?

[Gorilla Mask]

I found a very interesting article (in French, that is for ou Styles !...) about the origin of the modern language policy in Ukraine and the origins of the present war...

https://www.axl.cefan.ulaval.ca/europe/ ... e_de_2014_

I will try to summarize it here...

To make it very short, since the end of the XVIIIth century, the tsars, then the Soviet Union (since Stalin), carried out very important actions of russification then of sovietisation in Ukraine. This included simply the prohibition of teaching, but also of the language and grammar of the Ukrainian language, derived from the old Ruthenian.

In reality the actual phenomenon seems to be a very recent movement of "de-Sovietization" of place names in Ukraine (2016) and as an extension of cultural and linguistic disputes since 2014, as power shifts in favor of pro-Ukrainians.

The 'fire at the powder keg' was, following the impeachment of Viktor Yanukovych (2014), the project of repealing of a 2012 law that allowed the recognition at the local level of regional languages (official bilingualism – Kivalov-Kolesnichenko law )... Its purpose was the preservation of Russian against Ukrainian. At that time the law was adopted by a pro-Russian parliamentary majority against the opinion of the majority of the Ukrainian speaking deputies. The granting of "regional language" status to Russian was effectively equivalent to making any other language as official as Ukrainian.

This attempted repeal of the law by the Ukrainian Parliament, immediately after the flight of former (Putin puppet...) president Viktor Yanukovych on February 23, 2014, was immediately instrumentalized and recuperated by Russia, which saw it as an extremely provocative gesture against the "Russian-speaking population" of Ukraine and as one of the justifications for the annexing of Crimea and the outbreak of hostilities in the Donbass.

Under the leadership of the next president (Oleksandr Turchynov) a parliamentary working group was hastily set up to write a new law on the status of regional languages... But the damage was done and since dictator Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin has not ceased to justify his actions, including the annexing of Crimea in reference to what he denounces, without shame, today as a "genocide".

The nationalists in the Ukrainian parliament also pushed for the abandonment of the Cyrillic alphabet in favor of the Latin alphabet... This made things even worse, as one can imagine.

In 2014, the Russian-speaking populations of the Donbass felt uncomfortable but, paradoxically, were especially afraid of the reaction of the Russian 'Big Brother'...

Since 2012, in support of the Ukrainian oligarchs of Russian origin in place, then even more in 2014 with the annexing of Crimea and the provision of military support and mercenaries to the pro-Russian separatists of the Oblasts of Luhansk and Donesk, Putin has seamlessly worked to put the issue of cultural and linguistic supremacy at the center of his game of influence ... However, in 2012, among Russian minorities "Many Russian speakers in Ukraine now consider Ukraine as "their country" and are ready to become bilingual. Many Russian speakers have thus become Ukrainians while speaking Russian as their native language."

In 2015 the President of Ukrainian origin Petro Poroshenko made adopt four decommissioning laws, known as "de-communization" (Декомуніза́ція > dekommunizatsia), banning all propaganda about the communist and National Socialist (Nazi) totalitarian regimes in Ukraine. One of the consequences was a profound change in the official toponymy: "provided as a result the change of names of localities, streets or enterprises referring to the communist era. The "Lenin rooms" and "Lenin squares" were then liquidated in enterprises and military units, and the busts of Lenin and other personalities of the Communist Party were removed. In total, therefore, 1320 monuments representing the Communist leader Lenin were dismantled under the order of President Petro Poroshenko in May 2015. The government's clearly stated objective: to get rid of the symbols of the Soviet era and decommunize the country. Despite this policy, communist relics remained erected in the east of the country, still controlled by Kremlin-backed forces."

This could help to explain this quite recent change from 'Kiev' (soviet era toponym) to « Kyiv »

The disputes within the parliament and the Ukrainian political class has probably not helped... However, linguistic disputes have always been an argument for Putin, since 2004, to openly claim a protective status but covertly 'pull the strings' of power in Ukraine. Russia kept repeating since that it reserves the right to intervene in Ukraine "to protect Russian minorities"...

[80s Big Hair]

Me neither. Pay wall.

Did you have a different take?

No. That is why your post seemed strange to me. I apologize about the paywall (I did not get it). It is probably a simple java script one that I would not see.

[Pahonu]

Thank you GM for the thorough explanation.
Thank you 80’s Big Hair for bringing up the topic.

Language may be the most critical element of any culture and attempts to regulate or minimize it strikes very deeply at human emotion, to say the least.

[Gorilla Mask]

Thank you GM for the thorough explanation.
Thank you 80’s Big Hair for bringing up the topic.

Language may be the most critical element of any culture and attempts to regulate or minimize it strikes very deeply at human emotion, to say the least.

Thanks Pahonu, Well, I'm not interested in playing politics on this forum, you know that.

However, at the present day, no one should be deceived by the monstrous enterprise of deception led by the Kremlin (without the knowledge of its people...) against USSR former satellite states. If there is any genocide, it is historical, cultural and ethnic, it is not committed by so called drugged - neo-Nazi Ukrainians but by the tyrant Putin and some key men of the Russian power.

One should not forget testimonies of the past.

It is rare that I take a position like this, but I think it is a duty before history. With apologies in advance if I shock some people, that was not the purpose.

[Styles Bitchley]

Thank you GM for the thorough explanation.
Thank you 80’s Big Hair for bringing up the topic.

Language may be the most critical element of any culture and attempts to regulate or minimize it strikes very deeply at human emotion, to say the least.

Thanks Pahonu, Well, I'm not interested in playing politics on this forum, you know that.

However, at the present day, no one should be deceived by the monstrous enterprise of deception led by the Kremlin (without the knowledge of its people...) against USSR former satellite states. If there is any genocide, it is historical, cultural and ethnic, it is not committed by so called drugged - neo-Nazi Ukrainians but by the tyrant Putin and some key men of the Russian power.

One should not forget testimonies of the past.

It is rare that I take a position like this, but I think it is a duty before history. With apologies in advance if I shock some people, that was not the purpose.

I think we all grew up during the Cold War and recognize this for what it is. I don’t find your perspective too extreme in this case. It’s quite black and white, with not a lot of grey to be found. The problem is, Putin is a chess player. He’s deduced that there is no appetite for fighting foreign wars in the West and Covid has left us all exhausted. Quite clever to strike now, actually.

[Gorilla Mask]

Thank you GM for the thorough explanation.
Thank you 80’s Big Hair for bringing up the topic.

Language may be the most critical element of any culture and attempts to regulate or minimize it strikes very deeply at human emotion, to say the least.

Thanks Pahonu, Well, I'm not interested in playing politics on this forum, you know that.

However, at the present day, no one should be deceived by the monstrous enterprise of deception led by the Kremlin (without the knowledge of its people...) against USSR former satellite states. If there is any genocide, it is historical, cultural and ethnic, it is not committed by so called drugged - neo-Nazi Ukrainians but by the tyrant Putin and some key men of the Russian power.

One should not forget testimonies of the past.

It is rare that I take a position like this, but I think it is a duty before history. With apologies in advance if I shock some people, that was not the purpose.

I think we all grew up during the Cold War and recognize this for what it is. I don’t find your perspective too extreme in this case. It’s quite black and white, with not a lot of grey to be found. The problem is, Putin is a chess player. He’s deduced that there is no appetite for fighting foreign wars in the West and Covid has left us all exhausted. Quite clever to strike now, actually.

Good evening friend. Putin thinks he will win a Blietzkrieg and this is (I hope) his mistake; his software is that of the old empires. He despises the aspiration of the people and Nations (Wilson's 14 points).
NATO is stuck in its principles and rules of engagement. I cannot blame it.

The hope is that time is against Putin and that the logistical support of the US, Canada and the EU will be unfailing.

That is all. Thank you all for your tolerance.