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[eagle]

If Covid-19 only affected children, would those against vaccination refuse it for their children?

For myself, I am not anti-vax. I simply do not want to be a guinea pig for an untested, new type of vaccine that was never successful in animal testing. My children are vaccinated for most (all?) of the things. We hoped they would catch chicken pox, like my wife and I did as children, but nobody we knew had it while our children were in the right age range, so we weren't able to send them to a "chicken pox party," and so they had the jab for that.

You have the choice not to vaccinate but it will cary limits in public spaces to protect public health.

This -- COVID -- is different. COVID is at this point completely politicized, and it saddens me that so many people don't see that. This is not about health -- just look at Australia -- NONE of what the Australian government is doing is about health. "Health" is not a one-dimensional concept -- there are many things to consider. If we were one-dimensional beings, with one-dimensional health considerations, then Australia's actions might be warranted, but we are not, and those actions are not. Mental health is important too. Children's education is important too. We have to consider the whole person and the whole of society when we look at policy. We have to consider the results of that policy. And, we have seen the severely negative results of nearly two years of government overreach -- increased murder rates, increased suicide rates, increased depression rates, increased obesity, lowered treatment for cancer and other issues, decreased learning for schoolchildren, the list goes on -- and it's time to correct. It's not time to demand that all children get a jab that is known to be more dangerous to them than COVID is! (See California.)

I supported "15 days to slow the spread," and somewhere between 15 days and 45 days I came to realize that it wasn't about health... that it was about petty tyrants who want to control people's lives. In the very beginning, when we didn't know better, "15 days to slow the spread" was reasonable. But we now have nearly two years of information to go on: We know IFRs are practically 0% for anyone 55 and under (and it's only 15% for those 85 and over, and the vast majority of those who die had comorbidities). In short, we now know who is vulnerable, we know a lot of things. But we still act as if we know nothing, and we still act as if this is the plague -- that is, if it touches you, YOU WILL DIE. With these low (and in some cases practically nonexistent) IFRs, we know that this is absolutely not true. Ever since that point 15-45 days in, I have advocated a sensible approach: protect the vulnerable among us, and let the rest of us get back to normal lives. The sooner we do that, the better off we will all be.

[ZelenskyTheValiant (Ivan)]

If Covid-19 only affected children, would those against vaccination refuse it for their children?

For myself, I am not anti-vax. I simply do not want to be a guinea pig for an untested, new type of vaccine that was never successful in animal testing. My children are vaccinated for most (all?) of the things. We hoped they would catch chicken pox, like my wife and I did as children, but nobody we knew had it while our children were in the right age range, so we weren't able to send them to a "chicken pox party," and so they had the jab for that.

You have the choice not to vaccinate but it will cary limits in public spaces to protect public health.

This -- COVID -- is different. COVID is at this point completely politicized, and it saddens me that so many people don't see that. This is not about health -- just look at Australia -- NONE of what the Australian government is doing is about health. "Health" is not a one-dimensional concept -- there are many things to consider. If we were one-dimensional beings, with one-dimensional health considerations, then Australia's actions might be warranted, but we are not, and those actions are not. Mental health is important too. Children's education is important too. We have to consider the whole person and the whole of society when we look at policy. We have to consider the results of that policy. And, we have seen the severely negative results of nearly two years of government overreach -- increased murder rates, increased suicide rates, increased depression rates, increased obesity, lowered treatment for cancer and other issues, decreased learning for schoolchildren, the list goes on -- and it's time to correct. It's not time to demand that all children get a jab that is known to be more dangerous to them than COVID is! (See California.)

I supported "15 days to slow the spread," and somewhere between 15 days and 45 days I came to realize that it wasn't about health... that it was about petty tyrants who want to control people's lives. In the very beginning, when we didn't know better, "15 days to slow the spread" was reasonable. But we now have nearly two years of information to go on: We know IFRs are practically 0% for anyone 55 and under (and it's only 15% for those 85 and over, and the vast majority of those who die had comorbidities). In short, we now know who is vulnerable, we know a lot of things. But we still act as if we know nothing, and we still act as if this is the plague -- that is, if it touches you, YOU WILL DIE. With these low (and in some cases practically nonexistent) IFRs, we know that this is absolutely not true. Ever since that point 15-45 days in, I have advocated a sensible approach: protect the vulnerable among us, and let the rest of us get back to normal lives. The sooner we do that, the better off we will all be.

Couldn't have said it better myself, eagle! You hit the nail square on the head.

Nobody can agree on anything from one day to the next (everything keeps changing) yet we're supposed to all just fall in line because these same people have all the answers. Give me a break!!!

[Pahonu]

The vaccinated are absolutely capable of spreading the virus like the unvaccinated, however the rate of spread among the vaccinated is dramatically lower and they therefore represent only a small fraction of the total spread. There is a clear correlation between higher rates of spread and positivity rates in communities with lower vaccination rates.

And how exactly do you know this to be true? Did you personally verify all this? Have you been going from hospital to hospital, from patient to patient, checking each case? Or is this simply something that you got from the "evening news"? See, that's why we don't watch the "news" anymore in our family. News used to be reported, now they're mostly made up to fit agendas.

So none of these "statistics" mean anything if I can't verify them. Should I just trust them blindly? "Trust" is a rare commodity these days, I'm afraid.

Are you joking here Ivan? Yes, I went from hospital to hospital verifying each data-point personally. I’m sure that’s what you did as well to negate the data set. The concept of questioning the millions of data-points collected because I haven’t personally verified each is absurd, and you’ve not done the same to disprove the data. The only people that can be deceived by statistics are those who don’t understand the mathematics of statistical analysis, which I grant may include many in the population and some in this forum.

Being less facetious, I typically look to the National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS) which collects data from state, county, and local health departments.

May I ask what data set you are basing your judgements on?

Here’s a link:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/covid-19.htm

[ZelenskyTheValiant (Ivan)]

The vaccinated are absolutely capable of spreading the virus like the unvaccinated, however the rate of spread among the vaccinated is dramatically lower and they therefore represent only a small fraction of the total spread. There is a clear correlation between higher rates of spread and positivity rates in communities with lower vaccination rates.

And how exactly do you know this to be true? Did you personally verify all this? Have you been going from hospital to hospital, from patient to patient, checking each case? Or is this simply something that you got from the "evening news"? See, that's why we don't watch the "news" anymore in our family. News used to be reported, now they're mostly made up to fit agendas.

So none of these "statistics" mean anything if I can't verify them. Should I just trust them blindly? "Trust" is a rare commodity these days, I'm afraid.

Are you joking here Ivan? Yes, I went from hospital to hospital verifying each data-point personally. I’m sure that’s what you did as well to negate the data set. The concept of questioning the millions of data-points collected because I haven’t personally verified each is absurd, and you’ve not done the same to disprove the data. The only people that can be deceived by statistics are those who don’t understand the mathematics of statistical analysis, which I grant may include many in the population and some in this forum.

Being less facetious, I typically look to the National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS) which collects data from state, county, and local health departments.

May I ask what data set you are basing your judgements on?

Here’s a link:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/covid-19.htm

Exactly. You're getting that data from somewhere and you have no idea how trust-worthy that data is. It's great that you can just click on a link and get the numbers from there and not question it's veracity. Oh it's the CDC. They wouldn't lie to us.

And for the record, I never claimed to get my numbers (or any numbers) from anywhere. I'm just questioning your data. That's all. You make it sound like your data is set in stone. I'm highly suspect of any data the "powers that be" feed us.

[T.Q.]

This -- COVID -- is different. COVID is at this point completely politicized, and it saddens me that so many people don't see that. This is not about health -- just look at Australia -- NONE of what the Australian government is doing is about health. "Health" is not a one-dimensional concept -- there are many things to consider. If we were one-dimensional beings, with one-dimensional health considerations, then Australia's actions might be warranted, but we are not, and those actions are not. Mental health is important too. Children's education is important too. We have to consider the whole person and the whole of society when we look at policy. We have to consider the results of that policy. And, we have seen the severely negative results of nearly two years of government overreach -- increased murder rates, increased suicide rates, increased depression rates, increased obesity, lowered treatment for cancer and other issues, decreased learning for schoolchildren, the list goes on -- and it's time to correct. It's not time to demand that all children get a jab that is known to be more dangerous to them than COVID is! (See California.)

I supported "15 days to slow the spread," and somewhere between 15 days and 45 days I came to realize that it wasn't about health... that it was about petty tyrants who want to control people's lives. In the very beginning, when we didn't know better, "15 days to slow the spread" was reasonable. But we now have nearly two years of information to go on: We know IFRs are practically 0% for anyone 55 and under (and it's only 15% for those 85 and over, and the vast majority of those who die had comorbidities). In short, we now know who is vulnerable, we know a lot of things. But we still act as if we know nothing, and we still act as if this is the plague -- that is, if it touches you, YOU WILL DIE. With these low (and in some cases practically nonexistent) IFRs, we know that this is absolutely not true. Ever since that point 15-45 days in, I have advocated a sensible approach: protect the vulnerable among us, and let the rest of us get back to normal lives. The sooner we do that, the better off we will all be.

I agree.

Demanding experimental vaccination for a 99.98% survival rate (under 50) virus while suppressing any discussion or opinion or peer reviewed study about treatments and such is bizarre.

No debate. No exemptions. No recognition of natural immunity for recovered.

“Health” officials wont even talk about vitamins and supplements.

Canada’s Health Minister called vitamin D a “conspiracy theory” when studies show in a very high percentage of Covid deaths the people were seriously D deficiency.

There are so many things that make zero sense to me. I could write a book. There’s an agenda here IMHO.

Sorry we hijacked your thread Conch.

[Pahonu]

The vaccinated are absolutely capable of spreading the virus like the unvaccinated, however the rate of spread among the vaccinated is dramatically lower and they therefore represent only a small fraction of the total spread. There is a clear correlation between higher rates of spread and positivity rates in communities with lower vaccination rates.

And how exactly do you know this to be true? Did you personally verify all this? Have you been going from hospital to hospital, from patient to patient, checking each case? Or is this simply something that you got from the "evening news"? See, that's why we don't watch the "news" anymore in our family. News used to be reported, now they're mostly made up to fit agendas.

So none of these "statistics" mean anything if I can't verify them. Should I just trust them blindly? "Trust" is a rare commodity these days, I'm afraid.

Are you joking here Ivan? Yes, I went from hospital to hospital verifying each data-point personally. I’m sure that’s what you did as well to negate the data set. The concept of questioning the millions of data-points collected because I haven’t personally verified each is absurd, and you’ve not done the same to disprove the data. The only people that can be deceived by statistics are those who don’t understand the mathematics of statistical analysis, which I grant may include many in the population and some in this forum.

Being less facetious, I typically look to the National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS) which collects data from state, county, and local health departments.

May I ask what data set you are basing your judgements on?

Here’s a link:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/covid-19.htm

Exactly. You're getting that data from somewhere and you have no idea how trust-worthy that data is. It's great that you can just click on a link and get the numbers from there and not question it's veracity. Oh it's the CDC. They wouldn't lie to us.

And for the record, I never claimed to get my numbers (or any numbers) from anywhere. I'm just questioning your data. That's all. You make it sound like your data is set in stone. I'm highly suspect of any data the "powers that be" feed us.

So your argument is that you have no data, you simply don’t want to believe in the most comprehensive data we have because… that’s what you feel? Is there any data set you would believe in or are you just going with your feelings on a virus that has killed nearly 700,000 Americans?

Also, for the record, I find it extremely hypocritical when people that have contracted covid show up in the ER to be treated by the same medical system that supports vaccination for the virus. If they don’t know enough about the vaccine for you to get it then you probably shouldn’t trust them with your treatment for said virus.

[Sam]

There are so many things that make zero sense to me. I could write a book. There’s an agenda here IMHO.

The current administration is a mess... Threatening to fire health care workers border patrol agents and police officers if they aren't vaccinated..and all the while.. Processing and releasing illegals into our country without a covid test or vaccine..
I don't blame joe,he's not sure if he's coming or going.

[Pahonu]

This -- COVID -- is different. COVID is at this point completely politicized, and it saddens me that so many people don't see that. This is not about health -- just look at Australia -- NONE of what the Australian government is doing is about health. "Health" is not a one-dimensional concept -- there are many things to consider. If we were one-dimensional beings, with one-dimensional health considerations, then Australia's actions might be warranted, but we are not, and those actions are not. Mental health is important too. Children's education is important too. We have to consider the whole person and the whole of society when we look at policy. We have to consider the results of that policy. And, we have seen the severely negative results of nearly two years of government overreach -- increased murder rates, increased suicide rates, increased depression rates, increased obesity, lowered treatment for cancer and other issues, decreased learning for schoolchildren, the list goes on -- and it's time to correct. It's not time to demand that all children get a jab that is known to be more dangerous to them than COVID is! (See California.)

I supported "15 days to slow the spread," and somewhere between 15 days and 45 days I came to realize that it wasn't about health... that it was about petty tyrants who want to control people's lives. In the very beginning, when we didn't know better, "15 days to slow the spread" was reasonable. But we now have nearly two years of information to go on: We know IFRs are practically 0% for anyone 55 and under (and it's only 15% for those 85 and over, and the vast majority of those who die had comorbidities). In short, we now know who is vulnerable, we know a lot of things. But we still act as if we know nothing, and we still act as if this is the plague -- that is, if it touches you, YOU WILL DIE. With these low (and in some cases practically nonexistent) IFRs, we know that this is absolutely not true. Ever since that point 15-45 days in, I have advocated a sensible approach: protect the vulnerable among us, and let the rest of us get back to normal lives. The sooner we do that, the better off we will all be.

I agree.

Demanding experimental vaccination for a 99.98% survival rate (under 50) virus while suppressing any discussion or opinion or peer reviewed study about treatments and such is bizarre.

No debate. No exemptions. No recognition of natural immunity for recovered.

“Health” officials wont even talk about vitamins and supplements.

Canada’s Health Minister called vitamin D a “conspiracy theory” when studies show in a very high percentage of Covid deaths the people were seriously D deficiency.

There are so many things that make zero sense to me. I could write a book. There’s an agenda here IMHO.

Sorry we hijacked your thread Conch.

First of all, most of the world vaccine supply is based on many decades old vaccine technology, including Johnson & Johnson’s, so the experimental description you use to describe vaccinations is misleading. mRNA vaccine technology has been in development for over two decades and has been used in testing vaccines for Zika virus, rabies and also for cancer treatment studies. This isn’t something that just emerged last year.

Approximately 1 in 500 Americans has died of covid, nearly 700,000 in a population of over 330 million people. The survival rate varies by nation from 97 to 99+% but that has still totaled more than 4.5 million global deaths. It’s easy to write off a high survival rate until it is applied globally and it means millions of people’s deaths and tens or even hundreds of millions of there loved ones losses. I have lost a family member to covid and can’t dismiss these deaths as easily as you it seems.

I would also repeat that no one is coming to stick a needle in your arm. It is your choice to do so or not as witnessed by the many who remain unvaccinated in this country. You must simply deal with the consequences of your decision as it affects others. You can fly on a commercial airline and you may own a firearm, but you may not fly with a loaded firearm in your lap. It’s your decision in the end, but it may come with limitations.

[Sam]

Sorry for you loss..Pahonu
This is my fourth attempt..
Do you think the vaccine works..if so why is joe claiming his mission is to protect the vaccinated from the unvaccinated??
Let's see if this posts..

[T.Q.]

can’t dismiss these deaths as easily as you it seems.

Always goes personal.

What about vaccine deaths and adverse reactions. Efficacy quickly waning to 30% and requiring booster after booster. Spike protein damage to organs and natural immune system. Miscarriages. Myocarditis.

I can’t dismiss these deaths as easily as you it seems.

I hung around wife with covid for two weeks and I just can't seem to catch the thing. So I should be forced to manipulate my cells to pump myself full of spike?

Zero point arguing about it.

Cheers.

[ConchRepublican]

OK, my mistake for my rant and kicking off a storm.

Everyone back to your corners please.

I'm going to lock this down for now.

[ConchRepublican]

I found this image important.