Yep we certainly have our disagreements about a whole slew of things. But I would argue that things like having a driver's license and insurance to own and drive a vehicle are pretty much PART AND PARCEL of the whole thing. No too much infringing on individual liberties there if you ask me. Same with seat belt wearing, which isn't even strictly enforced anyway. I wear it for safety reasons (it doesn't bother me, never has) and I imagine most do nowadays because of the annoying beeping in modern cars if you don't. But there are ways of getting around it. Ultimately it's your choice.Pahonu wrote: ↑Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:44 amHey Ivan, I think we’re going to disagree a lot based on your arguments. I will also say that if you don’t want to debate the topic with me, you certainly have that choice. I understand, but I enjoy reading and analyzing arguments such as the paragraphs you wrote above.IvanTheTerrible wrote: ↑Mon Jan 25, 2021 3:30 am The mask wearing becomes political when the federal government begins to mandate that people wear them, no questions asked. The thing is the U.S. is very big on this thing called "individual rights" and "liberties". Or at least has been for the longest time, since its inception. Lately it's been slowly stripped away from people. So people who value and cherish these things tend to get their feathers ruffled when the government begins to issue these mandates for "our own good". Because of course we don't know any better. I personally was sick with COVID this past December. Coughed, sneezed, had headaches, lost taste and smell - tested positive. I went through the usual quarantine period and everything returned back to normal. No idea where I got it from though. I wore masks when in public because we HAVE to. Still, I got it somehow. Go figure. Mask didn't seem to do me any good.
Bottom line is the government tells us to wear them and we do, no questions asked. But why? We had the Swine flu, we had the Spanish flu, other pandemics - no one was required to wear masks. Thousands of lives were lost as recently as 2009 but we barely heard anything about it. No one was wearing masks that's for sure. Now, put on your mask or else. What happened to individual liberties? Don't we have choices about how to live our lives?
But imagine this scenario. Tomorrow you wake up in the morning and the government tells you that mask-wearing will now be mandatory forever. It's in your future, your kids' future, their kids' future. Now, I'm sure some folks will be "good little soldiers" and won't question or oppose this, falling in line because it's for "our own good". But there is NO WAY I'm ok with this! Seriously? So I lived half my life without a mask on my face but now you're telling me that for the rest of my life I have to have this thing on my face???? It's the new normal?? I DON'T THINK SO!!!! I'll take my chances with the virus, thank you very much. I don't think this is acceptable and I would imagine most rational people would agree with this. We and our ancestors went through who knows what terrible pandemics over past centuries (and millions died too) but somehow we didn't hide our pretty faces from anyone. It's human nature to expose your mouth and nose and not hide them behind a piece of cloth, restricting your breathing. Imagine future generations of family photos, everyone in face masks. It's not even funny. I find the idea pretty frightening. But believe it or not, such a thing could happen. All it takes is the government handing out these "mandates" and folks falling in line like sheep without questioning or thinking rationally what the implications are for future generations.
Bottom line is WE THE PEOPLE should make our own decisions about these things. That's what separates us from Soviet Russia where Ivan keeps prisoners in bamboo cages and shoots them in legs for stepping out of line.
Mandates? We ain't got no mandates! We don't need no mandates! We don't need no stinking mandates!
I’ll start by saying that there are an incredible number of things we Americans with all of our liberties routinely concede to as part of living in our society. I’m thinking of laws about wearing seatbelts, a minimum drinking age above adulthood, helmet laws in various states, public smoking laws, vaccinating children to enroll in public schools, etc... In each of these cases the public good has been prioritized ahead of individual rights and those laws have been created by elected officials selected by WE THE PEOPLE. The constitution established a republic, NOT a direct democracy. If enough people don’t agree with the law then they will vote out the lawmakers.
No individual rights are absolute and those who think they are have oversimplified things. You may not agree with every law, and neither do I, but they were created under our federal republic’s system. In the end we all have a choice to follow the laws or not. State police aren’t physically forcing compliance as happens in totalitarian systems like Soviet Russia. We have a choice, but certain choices may carry a consequence. If you don’t wear your seatbelt you can be ticketed. If you don’t vaccinate your child, you’ll need to find a non-public school that accepts that or home school them. If you don’t wear a mask currently you may not be allowed inside someone’s business. Those who complain that their rights are being taken away are in reality complaining about having the right to behave in any way they want, but without consequence. That doesn’t exist in any society. Someone’s personal rights only extend until they infringe on someone else’s rights. If someone can’t play nice with others in the sandbox, they may be asked to go play somewhere else by themselves.
Lastly, I would argue that many more Americans have rights today than in decades past or at our nation’s founding. The argument that we as a nation have fewer rights today than in the past neglects some pretty basic facts like half the population, women, have voting rights now, or Native Americans have full citizenship now, or that male voting rights don’t require the ownership of land or that enslavement is unconstitutional now. The only amendment to our constitution that has limited individual rights is Prohibition, the majority of the rest, since the Bill of Rights have expanded our rights, not limited them. Laws that violate those amendments can be struck down by the court. The courts have ruled repeatedly over the decades regarding public health versus individual rights and have squarely sided with the public welfare.
But back to my scenario - if the government said that mask-wearing is now mandatory for decades to come how would you feel? Would you comply? Would you rebel? Would you say "hold on, there's gotta be another way"? Or do we just accept it as the new normal? I say we don't. I say our individual rights and comforts are at stake. My face doesn't want to be covered by cloth for the rest of my life in church, at picnics, at barbecues, at Thanksgiving dinner, in stores and malls, or just strolling through the city. I want to be able to breathe in that fresh Hawaiian air when I'm out sightseeing with other people. I don't want to look at my baby in the crib with a little mask on his face. I don't want him to recognize "daddy" for the first time while I'm wearing a mask. That's not the image of "mommy" or "daddy" that I want him to have. In other words I want things to return to normal, to the way they used to be. Otherwise I feel my personal freedom is being taken away from me.