Protestors "Occupy Wall St."

[grundle]

[Jake]

Nice one! I love how when they interview people in the mob on TV not a one of them can put a coherent sentance together or even really know what they are protesting against or what they would recomend we replace capitalism with. I also saw an interview with some who are being paid to protest, more capitalism at work! Take a shower, get a haircut, and look for a job like the rest of us have to do. The nanny-state and entitlement mentality is ruining this country.

[Visiting Stewardess]

In a way this picture is right, we haven't got the means these days to live without products made by corporations. But on the other hand, there is a point to the protest. I mean there are banks going bust all the time, yet the traders and other bankers are still being paid bonuses in the millions. If the company (corporation, bank whatever) I work for is going bust, or at least not making a profit, possibly as a result of my poor performance, I cannot expect a bonus... this is what's pissing me off about the modern banking system.

[The Birdman]

I don't pretend to know much about politics, but I thought they were pissed that all these banks got 700 billion in tax money with zero accountability and now they still aren't stopping forclosures or giving new loans...... just saying. I didn't know they were protesting J Crew or Samsung, I thought it was banks.

[grundle]

In a way this picture is right, we haven't got the means these days to live without products made by corporations. But on the other hand, there is a point to the protest. I mean there are banks going bust all the time, yet the traders and other bankers are still being paid bonuses in the millions. If the company (corporation, bank whatever) I work for is going bust, or at least not making a profit, possibly as a result of my poor performance, I cannot expect a bonus... this is what's pissing me off about the modern banking system.

I'm against the government bailouts - I even wrote in Ron Paul for President!

But the idea that each person is good or evil based on whether or not their income is in the bottom 99% or the top 1% is absurd. Each individual person is good or evil, regardless of how much money they have.

As far as CEOs who destroy companies getting millions of dollars in bonuses, I do agree that that is ridiculous.

[grundle]

I don't pretend to know much about politics, but I thought they were pissed that all these banks got 700 billion in tax money with zero accountability and now they still aren't stopping forclosures or giving new loans...... just saying. I didn't know they were protesting J Crew or Samsung, I thought it was banks.

Occupy Wall St. was created by an organization called Adbusters, which is an anti-consumerist organization:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_St.

Occupy Wall Street

The protest was originally called for by the Canadian activist group Adbusters

.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adbusters

Adbusters

Adbusters Media Foundation is a not-for-profit, anti-consumerist, pro-environment organization founded in 1989 by Kalle Lasn and Bill Schmalz in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada.

[Styles Bitchley]

Occupy Wall St. was created by an organization called Adbusters, which is an anti-consumerist organization.

Like 'em or not, those guys do some really creative campaigns. It's not the 1960s any more and they're unlikely to trigger a revolution, but I think it's always good to drive debate around these issues.

[Pahonu]

Nice one! I love how when they interview people in the mob on TV not a one of them can put a coherent sentance together or even really know what they are protesting against or what they would recomend we replace capitalism with. I also saw an interview with some who are being paid to protest, more capitalism at work! Take a shower, get a haircut, and look for a job like the rest of us have to do. The nanny-state and entitlement mentality is ruining this country.

I think some of the same things could be said about the beginnings of the Tea Party movement as well. I recall the elderly gentleman holding up a sign at a rally demanding that government keep out of involvement in the Social Security System when it is obviously a government program, and a popular one at that. These movements tend to start as a more visceral response to some perceived problem and slowly evolve a more cohesive platform. The Republican party itself began as the party of abolition, certainly a highly charged topic of the day, and over time evolved to its present platform. This is also true of many other third parties in US history.

I don't think they're espousing something as simple as replacing capitalism or that corporations are good or evil. This creates a false dichotomy. Economic systems run the gamut from highly centralised systems such as Cuba, to near anarchy in failed states such as Somalia where currency is near worthless. It is really a question of how much regulation and involvement a population wants from its government, at least in democratic systems. There is a broad spectrum of government involvement and the US historically has been center-right amongst developed nations. Some of the social democracies of Europe and elsewhere have far more government involvement, but their populations seem to favor this as decades of voting results indicate. These are also capitalist systems. It's simply not an either/or question with a purely free-market devoid of any regulation on one side and complete centralized government control on the other. These two choices are only hypothetical extremes that have never truly existed in any nation-state.

What seems to be at issue in these growing number of protests is the sense by many that corporations in the last two to three decades have seen their political power rise in the form of special interest groups that increasingly influence government regulation or deregulation as the case may be. This has lead to a growing sense among the working and middle class that tax policy and other government legislation has been inequitable, unfairly favoring the largest corporations with the most political clout. This is the classic Wall Street/Main Street debate. Who knows where this will go, but these movements, both on the right with the Tea Party and now the left with Occupy Wall Street, grow out of disenfranchisement and the feeling that government is not representing your best interest or political view. It's perhaps going to be an important if not pivitol election in 2012 as to the direction of the US in coming years.

[The Birdman]

.... [snip] It's perhaps going to be an important if not pivitol election in 2012 as to the direction of the US in coming years.

Sadly I don't think anyone who is currently running is going to make much differance. I live in one of the hardest hit states, highest unemployment (my county specifically) We lost 3 RV manufacturers, 2 boat builders and a bunch of other companies, each one employed hundreds of people. If we don't bring jobs back to the US I don't really see any future for the US. I've personally only works 4 weeks out of the last 3 years. I'm just not hearing any plans that sound solid. I'm guessing that because the US is "in bed" with China we can't just put embargos on imported stuff?? It'd probably cause serious reprecussions or something. The country got screwed up in about the last 15 years. I don't want to turn this into a Republican vs. Democrat thing, I don't know if could even be fixed by anyone at this point and after Bush I registered as a 3rd party because I'm disallusioned by everything right now. I try to buy american with anything I buy. Recently I've bought American made Corcoran boots and an American made Kershaw pocket knife.

[Styles Bitchley]

Sadly I don't think anyone who is currently running is going to make much differance. I live in one of the hardest hit states, highest unemployment (my county specifically) We lost 3 RV manufacturers, 2 boat builders and a bunch of other companies, each one employed hundreds of people. If we don't bring jobs back to the US I don't really see any future for the US. I've personally only works 4 weeks out of the last 3 years. I'm just not hearing any plans that sound solid. I'm guessing that because the US is "in bed" with China we can't just put embargos on imported stuff?? It'd probably cause serious reprecussions or something. The country got screwed up in about the last 15 years. I don't want to turn this into a Republican vs. Democrat thing, I don't know if could even be fixed by anyone at this point and after Bush I registered as a 3rd party because I'm disallusioned by everything right now. I try to buy american with anything I buy. Recently I've bought American made Corcoran boots and an American made Kershaw pocket knife.

"Buying American" these days isn't what it used to be. The international trading and manufacturing system is way more complex than it ever has been in history. Many goods that claim to be "made in x country" are often assembled there from components made in other countries. And just because something is a "foreign" product doesn't mean it doesn't create American jobs (e.g., Toyota plants in the US). It's just not as simple as placing an embargo on Chinese goods, which would empty the shelves of every Walmart, put millions out of work and pretty much crush the American economy among others!

I'm wary of any politician who is selling an easy answer to today's economic problems. There are some deep-seated problems with the way the "system" operates today and the youth are showing their anger - much like they have in previous generations and in other countries. Warren Buffet should be commended for binging the ultra-rich tax issue to the fore. The fact that it's even a difficult issue (raising income tax on the country's multi-billionaires to that of normal folk) shows how much power this small group wields in Washington. Did someone say democracy?

[Pahonu]

.... [snip] It's perhaps going to be an important if not pivitol election in 2012 as to the direction of the US in coming years.

Sadly I don't think anyone who is currently running is going to make much differance. I live in one of the hardest hit states, highest unemployment (my county specifically) We lost 3 RV manufacturers, 2 boat builders and a bunch of other companies, each one employed hundreds of people. If we don't bring jobs back to the US I don't really see any future for the US. I've personally only works 4 weeks out of the last 3 years. I'm just not hearing any plans that sound solid. I'm guessing that because the US is "in bed" with China we can't just put embargos on imported stuff?? It'd probably cause serious reprecussions or something. The country got screwed up in about the last 15 years. I don't want to turn this into a Republican vs. Democrat thing, I don't know if could even be fixed by anyone at this point and after Bush I registered as a 3rd party because I'm disallusioned by everything right now. I try to buy american with anything I buy. Recently I've bought American made Corcoran boots and an American made Kershaw pocket knife.

I was referring to the nations political and economic direction in terms of regulation and structural change, not just growth or recession. Sadly, the current economic downturn nationally and internationally is of a scope so large it will take years to recover. Ultimately the US economy is growing (for now) but at too slow a rate to impact the massive downturn in a short period of time. Some estimates put full recovery at three to five more years!

Styles is exactly right about the complexity of the problem, but it would seem that big problems would call for big solutions, and our first two rounds of stimulus under Bush and then Obama were simply too timid. Then there is the issue of direct relief to citizens during this long recovery. There are many valid arguments that FDR's New Deal didn't end the Great Depression, but the many jobs programs offered economic relief to millions and certainly eased suffering greatly.

By the way, I know you're Canadian Styles and The Economist last year named Canada as the most stable economy on the planet. Maybe there are some lessons to be learned from the Canadian financial regulatory system.

[Majordomo]

I'm against the government bailouts - I even wrote in Ron Paul for President!

I wrote in Ron Paul in the last election as well. My wife, who voted for Obama, asked me why I was voting for him when I knew that he would not win?

I told her that of all the candidates, Ron Paul is the only one that does not get up on stage to say what his focus groups say is the popular answer. He speaks what he believes and he backs up what he says with the Constitution.

I highly recommend to Google Ron Paul and take the time to hear his rationale for limited government and free markets. At first, his ideas seem extreme, but when you look at what the US considers extreme nowadays, you start to see ROn Paul's revelvance and potential.

....and just to try and bring this around full circle, if I am not mistaken, I believe Tom Selleck considers himself a Libertarian, which is where Ron Paul's roots are.

[Pahonu]

I'm against the government bailouts - I even wrote in Ron Paul for President!

I wrote in Ron Paul in the last election as well. My wife, who voted for Obama, asked me why I was voting for him when I knew that he would not win?

I told her that of all the candidates, Ron Paul is the only one that does not get up on stage to say what his focus groups say is the popular answer. He speaks what he believes and he backs up what he says with the Constitution.

I highly recommend to Google Ron Paul and take the time to hear his rationale for limited government and free markets. At first, his ideas seem extreme, but when you look at what the US considers extreme nowadays, you start to see ROn Paul's revelvance and potential.

....and just to try and bring this around full circle, if I am not mistaken, I believe Tom Selleck considers himself a Libertarian, which is where Ron Paul's roots are.

I believe you are right that Selleck considers himself a Libertarian.

While I don't consider myself one, I believe there is some wisdom in his effort to limit the Federal Reserve's power as was done in the Dodd-Frank Bill. I don't, however, see any realistic way or reason to return to the gold standard of 120 years ago as has been his mission. The vast majority of current economists agree that the Fed monitary policy has tempered the economic cycle quite successfully since the Great Depression as judged by the relatively mild recessions experienced in the last 70 years (even including the current one) compared with the rollercoaster economic cycles in the decades prior. Remember historically the reason for the farmer's Populist Party's existence was to increase monetary supply and ease the chokehold of the railroads and other monopolies of the era. Flexible lending rates and monetary supply have done far more positive than negative in the last century.

[Jake]

Warren Buffet should be commended for binging the ultra-rich tax issue to the fore. The fact that it's even a difficult issue (raising income tax on the country's multi-billionaires to that of normal folk) shows how much power this small group wields in Washington. Did someone say democracy?

Buffet, and the current administration, are making the intellectually dishonest comparison between income taxes and capital gains taxes in their class warfare rhetoric and are hoping the majority of the uninformed masses won’t see thru the BS. Raising the capitals gains tax would hurt everyone (not just the rich) and crush the US economy even further. And it is all of us (not just the rich) who are going to get hit with new taxes, fees, and higher insurance rates thanks to the current tax and spend focus in Washington, especially when Obamacare is fully implemented.

Before falling into the trap of class warfare and demonizing anyone keep in mind that the U.S. tax system is already heavily weighted at the top. The top one percent of income earners pay 38 percent of all federal income taxes, the top 5 percent pay 59%, and the top 10% pay 70%. The bottom 50 percent pay only 3 percent and 49 percent of U.S. households pays no federal income tax at all. The government needs to cut the spending and waste before imposing more taxes on anyone. No more "stimulus" packages (we can see how well the first one worked)!

The collapse of the housing market (thank Barney Frank for refusing to regulate Fannie/Freddie and the banks for bundling the known shady loans) was the key trigger for the recession and the resulting bailout of Fannie/Freddie, the banks, and auto companies is sickening. I personally hate it and wish that the companies were forced to fold, however I do acknowledge that without TARP the economy would likely be much worse right now. As usual the government dropped the ball and dished out the TARP money with few strings attached and now the banks are stingy on lending money which is hurting economic growth. In this respect I feel the same frustrations as the Wall Street protestors and would gladly line up a bunch of the politicians and CEO's so the mob could throw their hacky sacks at them. However the "movement" has evolved into a conglomeration of a bunch of left wing idelogs and conspiracy theorists who are getting funding & support from the unions and George Soros so they will struggle to gain credibility (except on NBC news of course!).

The folks need to remember what made this country great, hard working Americans with a great work ethic, innovative spirit, and entrepreneurship. The entitlement mentality, lining up for government handouts, and getting into the mindset of punishing those who work hard and are successful in an effort to redistribute the wealth will ruin this country. How does it look like it is working out for Europe/Greece?

Sorry for the rant, I don’t want to get super political here or start an argument with anyone who has their own strong beliefs, as this forum is not the place to do so. All I ask is that people inform themselves on the issues and then make up their minds about what really makes the most common sense. Don’t get sucked into believing the rhetoric from either side, as it is usually designed to be either populist or simply pandering to the idelogs in the extremes of their given parties.

[Styles Bitchley]

Sorry for the rant, I don’t want to get super political here or start an argument with anyone who has their own strong beliefs, as this forum is not the place to do so.

I agree - and I think if this were drifting into that territory I'd jump ship, but I think because the overwhelming issue (the system is broken) is non-partisan, it's a constructive dialogue rather than a divisive one.

I think the problem that will be encountered by either major party in the US depending on the outcome of the next election is that truly healing the economy will take a plan that is longer than the four year term of office... That sort of puts pressure on whoever is in power to implement a "quick fix" solution to ensure they get re-elected, but will it be good in the long-term? The most obvious example is engagement in the green economy. It will admittedly take at least a decade for a robust green economy to really start generating jobs (electric cars, power generation, etc.), so does that mean fossil fuel investments (Keystone XL, etc.) should be the emphasis right now? If you want jobs now, maybe yes. If you want jobs in ten years, maybe not so much. Unfortunately, this is where you can see the usefulness of centralised benevolent dictatorship like we see Beijing! Their investments in green tech are astounding. They've already set themselves up to be the biggest provider of these goods.

Yes Pahonu, you're right I'm Canadian. Canada certainly fared better than most countries in the last recession and the banking sector regulations have a lot to do with it. Canada only has a handful of major banks and the rules governing lending and risky investments are far more strict than south of the border. But while the Canadian housing market didn't fail like many places in the US (none of the dodgy mortgages), the Canadian economy is TOTALLY dependant on the health of the US economy. Over 70% of Canadian goods are exported to the US and over 60% of goods imported to Canada come from the US. I wouldn't expect the Canadian economy to magically stay afloat in the long-term if things don't turn around south of the border. There are already some red flags.

That said, the international nature of the economy today means that national policy doesn't insulate an economy entirely. Switzerland (where I live now) has some of the tightest banking regulations in the world. For example, a bank can't give you a mortgage unless you put 20% down on a house and most require 25%. But UBS, the biggest national bank and one of the biggest in the world, almost went bankrupt in 2009 because of their investments outside the country.

I think the international nature of the economy today makes comparisons to the New Deal or the Marshall Plan moot. Today, people just move their money somewhere "safe" with the click of a mouse.