.45ACP or 9mm or BOTH?

[Higgy_baby]

This is noted in the main site from episode 1.2:

' A closeup of Magnum's gun reveals it to be a Colt Government Model .45 ACP (Series 70 model), Colt's commercial version of the standard military-issue M1911A1. In reality, Magnum's gun was actually a 9mm (though it played the role of a .45 on the show) due to its lowered ejection port. At the time, no one had yet come up with blanks that could reliably cycle a .45 ACP, so for many years, 1911s in movies and TV either weren't shown being fired or they used rough look-alikes such as the Star Model B 9mm (which is why the Star Model B was a lot more popular in TV and movies than it ever was in real life). (Noted by MaximRecoil)'

I'm not sure Magnum's pistol was a 9mm on the show. I think that the series makes a lot of continuity errors with an actual .45 shown as Magnum stalks, cocks, approaches danger, etc. The Star (which is similar but visibly different) or other 9mm lookalike is then inserted when he fires. Maybe this is what MaximRecoil meant.

This continuity issue can be clearly seen in the final scene of China doll. Another example is the season 1 episode (I'm having Magnum amnesia already) where Magnum stakes out a guy in a cheap hotel room or boarding house. He approaches with the Gov't model but goes in firing with a 9mm.

As I'm finding on this forum, it's all been thought out before. Anyone else been down this path already, and found some answers?

[J.J. Walters]

Hi Higgy_baby,

Sorry, that information could have been written more clearly. Yes, the Colt .45 was used for all scenes that did not require the gun to be fired. For scenes that required the gun to be fired, a 9mm was used.

I've re-written the note in the "Pilot Movie" page, as well as the entry in the 'Trivia' page.

And yes, lots of ground has been covered here at Magnum-Mania regarding the show, but there is still a lot more to be covered.

Thanks

[MrMoustache]

what was the reason behind using a .45 for closeups and the 9mm for firing? if either were firing blanks, the recoil would be negligible and both guns are in ready supply.. maybe TS' preference? do you know if they used steel the whole time or if they ever used dummy guns for stunts?

[Higgy_baby]

To make an automatic or semi-auto blankfire, you need to screw a plug into the end of the barrel with an orifice to allow some gas to escape, while still restricting enough backpressure to cycle the action.

It's likely that more blankfire 9mms pistols were available, and I think it's easier to get reliability out of the 9mm in blankfire mode. Having said that I have see Thompson blankfires work great in full auto with the properly loaded .45 blank.

Thinking out loud as I write, there may be another answer; availability. There are loads of 9mm blank in surplus circulation, but not so much .45. 9mm has been the standard military pistol and sub-gun round all over the world, for years. Lots of countries (including Canada) were phasing out submachineguns during the 80s and 90s as they went to smallbore like .223 for their standard rifle (makes subguns redundant). Millions and Millions of rounds of 9mm blank were floating in the market out there.

[Styles Bitchley]

To make an automatic or semi-auto blankfire, you need to screw a plug into the end of the barrel with an orifice to allow some gas to escape, while still restricting enough backpressure to cycle the action.

It's likely that more blankfire 9mms pistols were available, and I think it's easier to get reliability out of the 9mm in blankfire mode. Having said that I have see Thompson blankfires work great in full auto with the properly loaded .45 blank.

Thinking out loud as I write, there may be another answer; availability. There are loads of 9mm blank in surplus circulation, but not so much .45. 9mm has been the standard military pistol and sub-gun round all over the world, for years. Lots of countries (including Canada) were phasing out submachineguns during the 80s and 90s as they went to smallbore like .223 for their standard rifle (makes subguns redundant). Millions and Millions of rounds of 9mm blank were floating in the market out there.

Wow, Higgybaby. You sure know a lot about guns for a Canadian!

[Higgy_baby]

Well Styles, we're not all as anti-gun as Michael Moore or the Liberal politicians would like everyone else in the world to believe.

I think the fact that your adopted country of Switzerland has never been invaded and has low inicidence of gun violence might have something to do with the fact that every male citizen between 18 and 65 (I may be off on the range) has to have a fully automatic weapon ready to go in his home.

[Styles Bitchley]

Yeah. They're all a bit neurotic about the whole invasion thing over here. In fact, every building still has to have a fully-functional bomb shelter in the basement!

[MaximRecoil]

This is noted in the main site from episode 1.2:

' A closeup of Magnum's gun reveals it to be a Colt Government Model .45 ACP (Series 70 model), Colt's commercial version of the standard military-issue M1911A1. In reality, Magnum's gun was actually a 9mm (though it played the role of a .45 on the show) due to its lowered ejection port. At the time, no one had yet come up with blanks that could reliably cycle a .45 ACP, so for many years, 1911s in movies and TV either weren't shown being fired or they used rough look-alikes such as the Star Model B 9mm (which is why the Star Model B was a lot more popular in TV and movies than it ever was in real life). (Noted by MaximRecoil)'

I'm not sure Magnum's pistol was a 9mm on the show. I think that the series makes a lot of continuity errors with an actual .45 shown as Magnum stalks, cocks, approaches danger, etc. The Star (which is similar but visibly different) or other 9mm lookalike is then inserted when he fires. Maybe this is what MaximRecoil meant.

This continuity issue can be clearly seen in the final scene of China doll. Another example is the season 1 episode (I'm having Magnum amnesia already) where Magnum stakes out a guy in a cheap hotel room or boarding house. He approaches with the Gov't model but goes in firing with a 9mm.

As I'm finding on this forum, it's all been thought out before. Anyone else been down this path already, and found some answers?

Magnum's gun was a Colt Series 70 Government Model 9mm. This looks identical to one chambered for .45 ACP, the only external visible difference being the size of the bore (a difference of less than a tenth of an inch; not very noticeable onscreen).

The easiest way to tell the difference is if you can see the magazine, and the magazine was shown several times on the show, and it was definitely a 9mm magazine. The 9mm magazine has indented grooves on both sides so the more slender 9mm rounds fit in it snuggly (the .45 ACP magazine has no grooves).

The 1911 design was built specifically around the .45 ACP cartridge, and as such, the magazine well is sized for a magazine wide enough to use .45 ACP cartridges. In order to use .45 ACP size magazines with 9mm cartridges, Colt simply pressed grooves into standard size magazines so the 9mm would fit properly in them; rather than redesigning the frame of the gun to accomodate a thinner magazine.

It was not my intention to suggest that the Star Model B or any other rough look-alike of the 1911 was ever used on Magnum PI when I wrote the paragraph you quoted. They always used a genuine Colt Government Model; it was simply chambered in 9mm instead of .45 ACP. They did this because no one had figured out how to reliably cycle a .45 ACP with blanks until the mid-to-late '80s.

So why were Star Model Bs so common in the past on TV and in movies? Why didn't they simply use a 9mm version of a Colt Government Model like they did on Magnum P.I.? The answer is simple. Colt didn't introduce the 9mm version of the Government Model until the early '70s.

So, there was no need for a .45 ACP Government Model for closeups on Magnum PI, because they don't look any different than 9mm Government Models. In fact, in most of the scenes where you get a glimpse of the 9mm magazine; those are closeups of the gun.

Here is a picture of a Colt Series 70 Government Model 9mm:



And here is a picture of another one, in mint condition:



Those two guns are the exact same make, model, caliber, and era of manufacture as Magnum's prop gun(s). They made a couple of changes to the prop(s) compared to the factory configuration. First, they replaced the full-shelf thumb safety with a half-shelf thumb safety from a pre-1950 model (a job which takes about 30 seconds to accomplish), and they also replaced the Colt medallion grips with plain walnut military style grips; another 30 second job (they look the same, minus the medallions). This served to make the gun look more like a military M1911A1. So if they wanted it to look like a military M1911A1, why not just use one? Same problem. The last military M1911A1s were manufactured in 1945, and they were all .45 ACP (i.e., no 9mm versions).

The half-shelf thumb safety was in some shots of the gun, and the stock thumb safety was in other shots of the gun. This means that either there were multiple props, or they didn't swap the safety until later on in the show.

[J.J. Walters]

Thanks for the clarification MaximRecoil.

I'm still a little bit confused, however. If we see him using both the .45 ACP and the 9mm, how do we know that the 9mm was his "real" gun (i.e. the one that the show wants you to think that he uses)?

[MaximRecoil]

Thanks for the clarification MaximRecoil.

I'm still a little bit confused, however. If we see him using both the .45 ACP and the 9mm, how do we know that the 9mm was his "real" gun (i.e. the one that the show wants you to think that he uses)?

To my knowledge (and I've seen every episode and always examine the gun scenes) he's never shown using a .45 ACP. It is always a 9mm; though as you can see in the pictures above, with the magazine inserted (and thus, not visible) a 9mm Colt Government Model looks identical to a .45 ACP Colt Government Model, with the exception of the .095" smaller bore size (the bore is the hole in the barrel that the bullet travels through).

The most obvious visible difference is in the magazines, and every time they show the magazine (including in the pilot episode, which became part of the opening credits), it is a 9mm magazine (the 9mm magazines have pressed in grooves while the .45 ACP magazine does not).





If they ever did use a .45 ACP version of the CGM as a prop, there is no evidence of it that I know of. Every time there is an opportunity to identify the caliber of the gun, it is a 9mm.

If they were concerned about people noticing it was a 9mm, then for scenes that showed the magazine they could have easily swapped a .45 ACP magazine in there. Since they didn't even go to that minimal effort to disguise it, then I doubt they ever had a .45 ACP prop gun. What would be the point if they were not even going to use it or its magazine in the scenes where the true caliber was most obvious?

We know that the gun is playing the role of a .45 ACP because it is said to be a .45 in the dialog of the show at least once (by Higgins I believe).

BTW, the movie Cobra (1986) with Sylvester Stallone had the same deal going on. The plot summary on the box cover referred to his gun as a ".45", when in fact it was a 9mm. It was a Colt Gold Cup (originally chambered for .45 ACP) with a somewhat rare "9mm Conversion Unit" (an official conversion kit from Colt) installed on it.

[J.J. Walters]

Thanks again MR.

All of the details about Magnum's gun has, apparently, got me completely confused! I thought you had stated at one point (in some thread, somwhere) that closeup shots showed the gun to be a .45. But you're saying that ALL evidence points to it being a 9mm, but that dialog in the show indicates that it is supposed to be a .45?! Do you (or anybody else) happen to remember what episode(s) verbally name the gun as a .45?

Thanks

[MaximRecoil]

Thanks again MR.

All of the details about Magnum's gun has, apparently, got me completely confused! I thought you had stated at one point (in some thread, somwhere) that closeup shots showed the gun to be a .45. But you're saying that ALL evidence points to it being a 9mm, but that dialog in the show indicates that it is supposed to be a .45?! Do you (or anybody else) happen to remember what episode(s) verbally name the gun as a .45?

Thanks

Yes, all evidence points to the gun always being a 9mm CGM.

I've known since I was a teenager that the Magnum's gun was either a 9mm or a .38 Super rather than a .45 ACP, due to the grooved magazine; and the bore looking a little small. However, I had no idea why.

A couple of years ago, I was reading in a gun magazine about why Hollywood used 9mms instead of .45s for shooting scenes; and it was due to the issue with making them reliably cycle with blanks. After reading that, I no longer wondered whether it was a 9mm or a .38 Super; it was clearly a 9mm (because .38 Super Colt Government Models have been around for ages, and if they had blanks that worked well with those they would have simply used .38 Super CGMs in movies and TV).

Now, back in those days (pre-1970s), they would use a .45 ACP Colt Government Model for non-shooting scenes to get the right look, and then substitute something like a Star Model B 9mm (which looks very similar to, but is not identical to, a 1911/CGM) for shooting scenes.

I've mentioned all of that before and this may be what you are thinking of. But they didn't do that on Magnum P.I. because it was no longer necessary to do so in order to get the right look. The reason being; that when the Series 70 CGM was introduced in '71, they also introduced a 9mm version of it. So now Hollywood had access to a gun that had the right look (because it was a Colt Government Model afterall) and could work fine with blanks in firing scenes.

So that is what they did on Magnum PI. They used a real CGM, but it was chambered for 9mm rather than .45 so that it could be reliably cycled with blanks. They had the best of both worlds this way.

Now because the 1911/Colt Government Model design is so closely associated with the .45 ACP cartridge (that's the cartridge it was originally designed for, and the cartridge the military versions used, and has always been the most popular cartridge for it to this day); the first thing people think when they see one is "forty-five", regardless of what caliber it is really chambered for. Now for anyone that wants a 9mm CGM to play the role of a .45 CGM onscreen, this certainly works in their favor.

For the most part, a 9mm CGM is indistinguishable from a .45 CGM onscreen; especially if they never show the magazine. The bore of a 9mm is a little smaller, but that's hard to pick up onscreen. For example:



The gun on the bottom belongs to me. The gun on the top was a picture from an online gun auction that I saved specifically as an example of a 9mm CGM (they are not nearly as common as .45 CGMs).

The things I've noticed from closeups of the gun have had to do with identifying particulars of it other than caliber (most of the closeups give no indication of caliber anyway, except when you see the magazine, or in at least one case, the muzzle was helpful because there was another gun of a known caliber in the same scene to compare it to). For example, in my initial email to you (and one of my first posts on this forum), it was about demonstrating that the gun was a Colt Government Model rather than a military M1911A1.

Unfortunately, I can't remember which episode that Higgins refers to Magnum's gun or its ammunition as "forty-five". I'm thinking it was an episode where Magnum was suspected of shooting someone, and part of the evidence was that the person was shot with a .45 bullet. Does that sound familiar? It may have been one of the two Murder, She Wrote crossover episodes. I haven't seen it in a couple of years. If that's not the one, I'm sure someone will stumble across it at some point. If I had the series on DVD I'd look for it, but I don't.

[only looking]

The episode where the asian assassain blinks before he strikes, TC tells Magnum, use the 45. The scene with the guy in the tub shooting holes in Magnum's bathroom mentions it being a 45 as well. I've always noticed the smaller bore, the thumb safety was the half for most of the earlier episodes, but latter it changed to a stock series 70, but with the plain checkered wooden grips (no medalion) I have a series 70, 45 acp and I changed out the grips and it's spot on to Magnum's (of course mine truly is a 45..LOL) Going to get all my Magnum related items and post them in the next month or so when my wife gets her digital camera for her Birthday. I think some people will really be pleased.

[MaximRecoil]

The episode where the asian assassain blinks before he strikes, TC tells Magnum, use the 45. The scene with the guy in the tub shooting holes in Magnum's bathroom mentions it being a 45 as well.

Thanks. I figured someone would know. I think there are others too, because I'm pretty sure that Higgins mentioned it was a .45 too at some point.

I've always noticed the smaller bore, the thumb safety was the half for most of the earlier episodes, but latter it changed to a stock series 70, but with the plain checkered wooden grips (no medalion)

From what I've noticed, it was the other way around, but they may have had multiple guns (one or more with the half-shelf thumb safety and one or more with the stock full-shelf safety) and used them randomly throughout the series:





The first screenshot with the stock safety is from season 4 and the second one with the half-shelf safety is from season 6.

I have a series 70, 45 acp and I changed out the grips and it's spot on to Magnum's (of course mine truly is a 45..LOL)

Yeah, if you want a gun like Magnum's, the .45 is the caliber to get in my opinion; because even though the actual prop was a 9mm, in the Magnum PI "universe" it was a .45.

[only looking]

Good catches MaximRecoil, I always thought it was weird how certain things like the thumb sfety changed. I believe there are a couple more good hots in the warehouse shootout as well as the Little Saigon shootout in "Memories are forever"...I remember Higgins mentioning the 45 in the episode where he mentions the sound of a 45 in a certian type pattern (Where the guy is shooting holes in the bathroom wall) and maybe when he and Magnum are stuck in the elevator..not sure on that one.