Magnum Mania!

.. how would you "fix" Magnum, PI?

Yes, even though it was the greatest television series in the history of the Universe - there were a few little things I found annoying. By that I mean less than perfect.

***

-- First for me was that if Magnum was a Navy SEAL, he should have been a bit more SEAL-like.

In the pilot episode he was wearing the Surface Warfare device, not the SEAL Trident we see later. Yeah, that's the nature of pilot episodes, and it's certainly possible that someone not trained as a SEAL could still be doing that kind of work, but it should have been obvious from the beginning. And yeah, he could swim and scuba dive, but he sure got beat up a lot by common thugs - something I don't see happening to a SEAL.

***

-- Second was Higgins' history.

Based on his stories, Higgins seemed to bounce around the world a lot during the Second World War. I'm convinced the war could have ended a year earlier had the British not expended all those resources sending Higgins to all those places. An even better trick was how he was on opposite sides of the world at the same time.

And it wasn't just WW2. I'm sure if I dug a little deeper I would find similar incongruities in the timeline throughout the 50's and into the 60's as well.

Another thing that comes to mind was his being awarded a doctorate (Was it Mathematics, Cambridge, 1947?) So he was sent down from Sandhurst immediately prior to WW2, spent all that time in various theaters doing amazing things, then two years after the war ended he got his doctorate while also doing all that postwar Army/MI-6 stuff? When and how did he do all that undergrad work, by correspondence courses? It would have been so simple to just make that doctorate in '57, or even '67.

***

I could probably think of a few more things I would change, but then that's why I'm asking you.

I would eliminate the jerk step-father (David Huddleston) plot and TM wouldn't have gone back to the Navy at the end.

Nothing is ever perfect, especially a long running TV series. As many things as I could probably pick apart about it, I really don't think I will. I pretty much like it just the way it is.

I’ve always wondered how episode details might have been different if Rick continued to run his club with all the underworld activities. It could have led to some much more interesting meetings with potential clients than those at the KKC.

Little Voice in Your Head wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 4:13 am .. how would you "fix" Magnum, PI?

Yes, even though it was the greatest television series in the history of the Universe - there were a few little things I found annoying...
Based on his stories, Higgins seemed to bounce around the world a lot during the Second World War. I'm convinced the war could have ended a year earlier had the British not expended all those resources sending Higgins to all those places. An even better trick was how he was on opposite sides of the world at the same time.
And it wasn't just WW2. I'm sure if I dug a little deeper I would find similar incongruities in the timeline throughout the 50's and into the 60's as well.
I could probably think of a few more things I would change, but then that's why I'm asking you.

Hi Little Voice,
At the Magnum Mania "Higgins History", they do "Higgins Timeline". Whomever did the timeline invested a lot of time and effort and we should all thank him or her.
It's a valuable resource for all here.
However in a post some years ago I addressed the Magnum PI writing staff's fanciful Higgins Timeline, point by point:

I have to take issue with the Magnum PI writers 'history and their timeline':

1937 - Presumably still a Sandhurst cadet, doing some field work, Higgins is surrounded by Egyptians in 1937.
While not a part of the British Empire, Egypt was a de facto British satrap with a puppet government. Neither their army nor security forces would dare attack a British unit.

1940 - Higgins had read Rommel's treatise on tank warfare? It wasn't completed when Rommel died in 1944 and was only pieced together after the war.

1940 - Lance-Corporal Higgins transferred to the Khyber Pass which was manned by almost all Indian Army regiments. Which means a transfer to the British Indian Army and out of his original regiment.
Almost impossible for a lowly non-com, they wouldn't bother.
The British Empire Indian Army and Navy were separate institutions from regular British forces. You had senior British officers running them and a sprinkling of lower officers and senior enlisted men,
all long serving lifers. The idea they would somehow need/require the basic infantry skills of a barely shaving Lance Corporal with at most 2 years in-service is just not on.
If it is the case that Higgins regiment was sent as a whole, then maybe. But they wouldn't have been sent there and then back in time for El Alamein in "1941"(actually the 1st battle there was in 1942).
The British were already stretched thin and did not have the transport to waste playing musical chairs with army units, between a backwater and the then main theater of contention for the Empire, North Africa.
Besides they would not have been needed at the Khyber Pass, the frontier units there could have easily dispatched any incursions from that quarter.
There were regular British Army units in India, dedicated between wars to maintaining the Empire, The Raj, but not nearly as large as the colonial British Indian forces and generally held back from frontier
duty as a strike force and to ensure order.
Later on the British had to resign themselves to a tacit understanding with the Indians that in exchange for loyalty during WW 2 the Indians would be granted independence afterwards.

1941 - Back in North Africa for the Western Desert Campaign.
1942 - Higgins is then sent to a principality in the Pyrenees for 6 months of undercover work. By this point he must transferred to the Special Operations Executive and undergone extensive training.
The SOE fits perfectly with Higgins supposed ensuing activities.
The idea that afterwards he would then be sent back to his regiment as just another non-com just wouldn't happen to a now highly skilled asset unless he totally screwed up.
Supposedly from July to October he is back with the regiment in North Africa.
Higgins is then tasked to bring supplies to Chinese irregulars in the Himalayas. So he is back with the SOE again.
1943 - Back from Asia, back in the regulars, serves with the 8th Army in Sicily. That summer he is again sent back to Asia!
First as an adviser to the Aussies in the New Guinea campaign, then apparently back with his old regiment in Malaya, so he is back in the ranks once more!
1944 - Back to the ETO again! We find Higgins at Monte Casino and Anzio.
1944 - Back to Asia, where on a Pacific isle he paints before battles.
1944 - Back to Morocco with his regiment! Except by then the war had moved on to Italy and later France and there were no more British infantry units there.
1944- Sent to Normandy for D-Day. A month later he is sent to Mexico City to pull a bank heist! He then finds time to play tennis with the top seeded US Army player.
And then:
1944 - Back to the ETO! he parachutes into the Ural Mountains! with a demolition team to infiltrate German Lines! Moronic!
The Germans were never anywhere near the Urals which divides Europe from Asia. Not in 1941 and certainly not in 1944.
If they had the war would have been over, the Soviets armies off the board, the armies that tied down 80% of Nazi forces and after 1943 made the once mighty German army a ruin, gone.
I can't take parsing Higgin's timeline anymore, I give up.
The Magnum writers have 'lost the plot' as the Aussies say. What color is the sky in their world? Either Higgins is the greatest soldier adventurer in history or he is a "Colonel Blimp" type who bought
a cheap knock off Victoria Cross from a crooked vendor on Portobello Road in London while on a toot.
I prefer to think Higgins is on the level, he is a wonderful character, except the writers got carried away with the fun of doing his back story, their flawed knowledge of WW2 undermining their efforts.
Plus they probably assumed in the pre VCR days nobody would notice anyway.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A greeting from Jersey: К черту Путина (k chertoo Putina)

I found the finale unsatisfying on many levels.

Re-write.

Luther's nephew Dobie wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:37 am

Little Voice in Your Head wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 4:13 am .. how would you "fix" Magnum, PI?

Yes, even though it was the greatest television series in the history of the Universe - there were a few little things I found annoying...
Based on his stories, Higgins seemed to bounce around the world a lot during the Second World War. I'm convinced the war could have ended a year earlier had the British not expended all those resources sending Higgins to all those places. An even better trick was how he was on opposite sides of the world at the same time.
And it wasn't just WW2. I'm sure if I dug a little deeper I would find similar incongruities in the timeline throughout the 50's and into the 60's as well.
I could probably think of a few more things I would change, but then that's why I'm asking you.

Hi Little Voice,
At the Magnum Mania "Higgins History", they do "Higgins Timeline". Whomever did the timeline invested a lot of time and effort and we should all thank him or her.
It's a valuable resource for all here.
However in a post some years ago I addressed the Magnum PI writing staff's fanciful Higgins Timeline, point by point:

I have to take issue with the Magnum PI writers 'history and their timeline':

1937 - Presumably still a Sandhurst cadet, doing some field work, Higgins is surrounded by Egyptians in 1937.
While not a part of the British Empire, Egypt was a de facto British satrap with a puppet government. Neither their army nor security forces would dare attack a British unit.

1940 - Higgins had read Rommel's treatise on tank warfare? It wasn't completed when Rommel died in 1944 and was only pieced together after the war.

1940 - Lance-Corporal Higgins transferred to the Khyber Pass which was manned by almost all Indian Army regiments. Which means a transfer to the British Indian Army and out of his original regiment.
Almost impossible for a lowly non-com, they wouldn't bother.
The British Empire Indian Army and Navy were separate institutions from regular British forces. You had senior British officers running them and a sprinkling of lower officers and senior enlisted men,
all long serving lifers. The idea they would somehow need/require the basic infantry skills of a barely shaving Lance Corporal with at most 2 years in-service is just not on.
If it is the case that Higgins regiment was sent as a whole, then maybe. But they wouldn't have been sent there and then back in time for El Alamein in "1941"(actually the 1st battle there was in 1942).
The British were already stretched thin and did not have the transport to waste playing musical chairs with army units, between a backwater and the then main theater of contention for the Empire, North Africa.
Besides they would not have been needed at the Khyber Pass, the frontier units there could have easily dispatched any incursions from that quarter.
There were regular British Army units in India, dedicated between wars to maintaining the Empire, The Raj, but not nearly as large as the colonial British Indian forces and generally held back from frontier
duty as a strike force and to ensure order.
Later on the British had to resign themselves to a tacit understanding with the Indians that in exchange for loyalty during WW 2 the Indians would be granted independence afterwards.

1941 - Back in North Africa for the Western Desert Campaign.
1942 - Higgins is then sent to a principality in the Pyrenees for 6 months of undercover work. By this point he must transferred to the Special Operations Executive and undergone extensive training.
The SOE fits perfectly with Higgins supposed ensuing activities.
The idea that afterwards he would then be sent back to his regiment as just another non-com just wouldn't happen to a now highly skilled asset unless he totally screwed up.
Supposedly from July to October he is back with the regiment in North Africa.
Higgins is then tasked to bring supplies to Chinese irregulars in the Himalayas. So he is back with the SOE again.
1943 - Back from Asia, back in the regulars, serves with the 8th Army in Sicily. That summer he is again sent back to Asia!
First as an adviser to the Aussies in the New Guinea campaign, then apparently back with his old regiment in Malaya, so he is back in the ranks once more!
1944 - Back to the ETO again! We find Higgins at Monte Casino and Anzio.
1944 - Back to Asia, where on a Pacific isle he paints before battles.
1944 - Back to Morocco with his regiment! Except by then the war had moved on to Italy and later France and there were no more British infantry units there.
1944- Sent to Normandy for D-Day. A month later he is sent to Mexico City to pull a bank heist! He then finds time to play tennis with the top seeded US Army player.
And then:
1944 - Back to the ETO! he parachutes into the Ural Mountains! with a demolition team to infiltrate German Lines! Moronic!
The Germans were never anywhere near the Urals which divides Europe from Asia. Not in 1941 and certainly not in 1944.
If they had the war would have been over, the Soviets armies off the board, the armies that tied down 80% of Nazi forces and after 1943 made the once mighty German army a ruin, gone.
I can't take parsing Higgin's timeline anymore, I give up.
The Magnum writers have 'lost the plot' as the Aussies say. What color is the sky in their world? Either Higgins is the greatest soldier adventurer in history or he is a "Colonel Blimp" type who bought
a cheap knock off Victoria Cross from a crooked vendor on Portobello Road in London while on a toot.
I prefer to think Higgins is on the level, he is a wonderful character, except the writers got carried away with the fun of doing his back story, their flawed knowledge of WW2 undermining their efforts.
Plus they probably assumed in the pre VCR days nobody would notice anyway.

Per The Uncle, this characterization of Higgins was done in a purposeful way. Was Higgins an arrogant blowhard who was jealous of Magnum and just made these stories up? Was Higgins a day dreamer who read a lot and placed himself into history when it was convenient to the situation at hand? Did Higgins do everything he said, some, a little or none at all. It was done to keep all guessing and most of all Magnum.

Or a makeup of all of them, correct when required and false when needed and the simple fact that you question it now, IMO, proves true what The Uncle said as you just don't know and that makes it all the better.

NotthatRick wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:06 pm Nothing is ever perfect, especially a long running TV series. As many things as I could probably pick apart about it, I really don't think I will. I pretty much like it just the way it is.

That's certainly fair, and I don't think we should pick it apart -- I was just thinking of those things that stand out as particularly annoying.

Thanks Dobie AND to whoever did the Higgins timeline - a lot of work obviously went into both, and it must have been frustrating work indeed. And thanks Waverly for your input. I've never dug that deeply into putting together dates and places in the various stories, but I knew something was amiss and chalked it up to the writers attitudes that it all sounds good and nobody's going to care that much about whether the details were historically feasible.

In my heart of hearts I need to believe the intent was for Higgins to have really experienced those things. If I thought he was lying, it could shatter my whole world. It's a shame Bellisario and Larson didn't realize what a masterpiece they created, and so treated it like all those other (pretty good, but not great) shows they did.

Little Voice in Your Head wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 11:07 pm Thanks Dobie AND to whoever did the Higgins timeline - a lot of work obviously went into both, and it must have been frustrating work indeed. And thanks Waverly for your input. I've never dug that deeply into putting together dates and places in the various stories, but I knew something was amiss and chalked it up to the writers attitudes that it all sounds good and nobody's going to care that much about whether the details were historically feasible.

In my heart of hearts I need to believe the intent was for Higgins to have really experienced those things. If I thought he was lying, it could shatter my whole world. It's a shame Bellisario and Larson didn't realize what a masterpiece they created, and so treated it like all those other (pretty good, but not great) shows they did.

Little Voice,
I agree, Higgins has to be on the level otherwise Magnum and the guys wouldn't respect him in the end. Because when you come down to it, these stories would include the maiming and killing of
a certain percentage of the men involved. Bullshitting about that, after a certain point, beyond any humorous elements you can share, is beyond the pale.
I think you nailed it, Bellisario should have had more respect for his own work, and not have had Higgins jumping about around the world so often in a short period.
Perhaps it wasn't the case that the guys didn't believe Higgy rather that he can come off as a droning upper class twit type (that Monty Python made fun of) when he tells long stories about Corky
and the lads(his fellow squaddies, not the dogs). Higgy comes from a entitled, wealthy foreign background a world away from TC and Rick's experiences, no wonder they often just stare at him
in amazement.
That's why I so enjoy the Christmas episode on the island, it's made plain that TC now totally gets Higgins and respects him while forgiving his blind spots. It would be hard to find a more
unlikely pair of friends.

MagnumsLeftShoulder wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 5:49 pm I would eliminate the jerk step-father (David Huddleston) plot and TM wouldn't have gone back to the Navy at the end.

Agreed on both of these, especially the re-upping as well as Magnum being “more SEAL-like.”

I’ll add:

Cut Magnum’s screeching and screaming scene from Flashback.
Cut “Thomas was Navy’s QB.”
A recast and better-written Carol.
No Magnum mincing off to Heaven (in his shorty shorts no less, but then the shorts thing is a case of “Welcome to the ‘80s, pal!”)
Cut attempt at surrealism i.e. Magnum’s conversation with “Blueberry Violet Beauregarde” Mac.
No “Is Higgins Robin Masters?” nonsense.

My biggest change/gripe would be better interaction between the characters and the Hawaiians. The bizarre divide between the two groups was perplexing to me even as a kid.

Little Garwood wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 4:25 pm
My biggest change/gripe would be better interaction between the characters and the Hawaiians. The bizarre divide between the two groups was perplexing to me even as a kid.

I’ve mentioned it here before that Bellisario has said his goal for the series visually was more a pre-war Hawaii, during the territorial days. I don’t know why that is, but he has said so. Now there were certainly very many native Hawaiians in that era as well, but it was, sadly, a period of higher social segregation.

As much as we romanticize the Pahonu estate, it was in reality the country estate of a wealthy white couple with money from Chicago. It was used to entertain society friends not locals. The only native Hawaiians on the property were likely domestic staff. Sad but true.

I would doubt Bellisario was trying to recreate that segregation, but it was part of that era, including visually. We still saw a bit of it on Magnum in some KKC scenes. Recreating the look of such society clubs would likely include typical members and staff. Plenty of the staff like Moki and Keoki are depicted as native Hawaiian on the series, but much of the membership just isn’t. Just some thoughts.

Pahonu wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 2:59 am

Little Garwood wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 4:25 pm
My biggest change/gripe would be better interaction between the characters and the Hawaiians. The bizarre divide between the two groups was perplexing to me even as a kid.

I’ve mentioned it here before that Bellisario has said his goal for the series visually was more a pre-war Hawaii, during the territorial days. I don’t know why that is, but he has said so. Now there were certainly very many native Hawaiians in that era as well, but it was, sadly, a period of higher social segregation.

As much as we romanticize the Pahonu estate, it was in reality the country estate of a wealthy white couple with money from Chicago. It was used to entertain society friends not locals. The only native Hawaiians on the property were likely domestic staff. Sad but true.

I would doubt Bellisario was trying to recreate that segregation, but it was part of that era, including visually. We still saw a bit of it on Magnum in some KKC scenes. Recreating the look of such society clubs would likely include typical members and staff. Plenty of the staff like Moki and Keoki are depicted as native Hawaiian on the series, but much of the membership just isn’t. Just some thoughts.

Even today said wealthy couple would hardly ever have much social/intimate relations with the "locals." Society is such that it consists of hierarchies of social groups and statuses such that US neighborhoods are as segregated as ever (though of course there are some exceptions). In-group favoritism and comfort are so ingrained in the human species that there will never be complete integration of classes and ethnicities. The latter is an ideal but ought not to deceive us as real. From what I have seen, TS/MPI classic made much strides in representing Hawaii/society realistically. For example, TM not infrequently gets bested by Asian characters, something that would have been unusual for the hero character in earlier time periods.

Pahonu wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 2:59 amI’ve mentioned it here before that Bellisario has said his goal for the series visually was more a pre-war Hawaii, during the territorial days. I don’t know why that is, but he has said so. Now there were certainly very many native Hawaiians in that era as well, but it was, sadly, a period of higher social segregation.

As much as we romanticize the Pahonu estate, it was in reality the country estate of a wealthy white couple with money from Chicago. It was used to entertain society friends not locals. The only native Hawaiians on the property were likely domestic staff. Sad but true.

I would doubt Bellisario was trying to recreate that segregation, but it was part of that era, including visually. We still saw a bit of it on Magnum in some KKC scenes. Recreating the look of such society clubs would likely include typical members and staff. Plenty of the staff like Moki and Keoki are depicted as native Hawaiian on the series, but much of the membership just isn’t. Just some thoughts.

If Bellisario sought to recreate a past time and place, he did so only fleetingly and superficially, as the Magnumverse commented on that social divide only when a story referenced or was set in that time (Flashback; Forty Years from Sand Island; Black on White). I cannot recall an instance in which that social divide was used contemporaneously.

In many ways the 1980s was a retrograde decade; a reaction to what transpired during the late '60s and through the midpoint of the '70s. In the '80s, many seemed to seek solace in the (relative) calm of the 1950s.

Each decade has nostalgia for what preceded it: the '70s focused on the '50s, as did the '80s. Cases could be made for (lesser-known) nostalgia crazes from preceding decades.

Little Garwood wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 3:02 pm

Pahonu wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 2:59 amI’ve mentioned it here before that Bellisario has said his goal for the series visually was more a pre-war Hawaii, during the territorial days. I don’t know why that is, but he has said so. Now there were certainly very many native Hawaiians in that era as well, but it was, sadly, a period of higher social segregation.

As much as we romanticize the Pahonu estate, it was in reality the country estate of a wealthy white couple with money from Chicago. It was used to entertain society friends not locals. The only native Hawaiians on the property were likely domestic staff. Sad but true.

I would doubt Bellisario was trying to recreate that segregation, but it was part of that era, including visually. We still saw a bit of it on Magnum in some KKC scenes. Recreating the look of such society clubs would likely include typical members and staff. Plenty of the staff like Moki and Keoki are depicted as native Hawaiian on the series, but much of the membership just isn’t. Just some thoughts.

If Bellisario sought to recreate a past time and place, he did so only fleetingly and superficially, as the Magnumverse commented on that social divide only when a story referenced or was set in that time (Flashback; Forty Years from Sand Island; Black on White). I cannot recall an instance in which that social divide was used contemporaneously.

In many ways the 1980s was a retrograde decade; a reaction to what transpired during the late '60s and through the midpoint of the '70s. In the '80s, many seemed to seek solace in the (relative) calm of the 1950s.

Each decade has nostalgia for what preceded it: the '70s focused on the '50s, as did the '80s. Cases could be made for (lesser-known) nostalgia crazes from preceding decades.

I wasn’t specifically referring to direct commentary by the writers, and as I said, I don’t believe Bellisario specifically sought to recreate the social conditions of pre-war Hawaii. I was commenting on the legacy of such segregation, which can linger for generations, and was still evident in Hawaii in the 80’s and in the series. Some argue it still lingers with the higher rates of poverty and lower income jobs of native Hawaiians currently.

The nostalgia for the 1950’s was quite evident in the 70’s with American Graffiti, Happy Days, etc…and for the 60’s when I was in high school in the late 80’s. I think such nostalgia might also be viewed through the lens of minority groups from that era. Happy Days was a wonderful series, but it certainly didn’t depict the experience of African Americans in that era, and I’m not referring just to the South. Milwaukee has a fairly striking segregationist past.

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