Don't Eat the Snow in Hawaii (1) (1.1)
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Okay, just watched this again tonight, after having seen it several times, but not paying real attention the way you guys here have taught me to.
So close to the end of the first episode, this thread, I guess, Magnum comes into the estate at night, calling to Zeus and Apollo, and goes under the tunnel to the RIGHT of the Ferrari in the driveway to go to the guesthouse. We now know this is wrong, geographically. Anyway, once he gets in the guesthouse and is surprised by Higgins and the lads, they negotiate for use of the "stables and tennis court." WHAT STABLES?? Is this ever mentioned again? Or are these Joey's stables???? (We shall never speak of him/the stables again???)
Just a ha-ha on the "never mentioned again" theme.
Secondly, after this scene, we go to the flashback to Vietnam where TC is flying the helicopter and Rick is the spotter/gunner in the chopper. Now the helicopter in this scene is a Bell 206II Jetranger, which was not used in Vietnam, as I can find via internet research. For example:
Bell 206II and III
More Bell 206 Info
Now, a different version of the Bell 206, as the Kiowa, was used in Vietnam, but as the heli looks in the show, it's the Jetranger or even the Longranger, which would be anachronistic for Vietnam era. (This is also the heli in which Magnum and the military pursued TC in the second part of "Did You See the Sunrise" and they hover beside TC over the ponds in front of the Japanese temple.)
However, I am NOT a helicopter expert, but this seems to me to be a "flub" in using a helicopter that was not really used in Vietnam for the purpose that it seems to be used in this episode.
I'm sure Island Hopper or Doc Ibold can correct me on this if I'm wrong. It just seemed somewhat of a flub to me. Production used what it had available and didn't realize it would be analyzed in detail 25 years later?
Please forgive me, guys, if I'm overstepping the bounds here by over-analyzing the helicopters used. What should have been used in this "rescue" scene should have been a Huey, right? Or at least TC's AH-6 Little Bird (the same aircraft that his Island Hoppers chopper was)?
Just trying to stay on top of the mechanics . . . .
golf
So close to the end of the first episode, this thread, I guess, Magnum comes into the estate at night, calling to Zeus and Apollo, and goes under the tunnel to the RIGHT of the Ferrari in the driveway to go to the guesthouse. We now know this is wrong, geographically. Anyway, once he gets in the guesthouse and is surprised by Higgins and the lads, they negotiate for use of the "stables and tennis court." WHAT STABLES?? Is this ever mentioned again? Or are these Joey's stables???? (We shall never speak of him/the stables again???)
Just a ha-ha on the "never mentioned again" theme.
Secondly, after this scene, we go to the flashback to Vietnam where TC is flying the helicopter and Rick is the spotter/gunner in the chopper. Now the helicopter in this scene is a Bell 206II Jetranger, which was not used in Vietnam, as I can find via internet research. For example:
Bell 206II and III
More Bell 206 Info
Now, a different version of the Bell 206, as the Kiowa, was used in Vietnam, but as the heli looks in the show, it's the Jetranger or even the Longranger, which would be anachronistic for Vietnam era. (This is also the heli in which Magnum and the military pursued TC in the second part of "Did You See the Sunrise" and they hover beside TC over the ponds in front of the Japanese temple.)
However, I am NOT a helicopter expert, but this seems to me to be a "flub" in using a helicopter that was not really used in Vietnam for the purpose that it seems to be used in this episode.
I'm sure Island Hopper or Doc Ibold can correct me on this if I'm wrong. It just seemed somewhat of a flub to me. Production used what it had available and didn't realize it would be analyzed in detail 25 years later?
Please forgive me, guys, if I'm overstepping the bounds here by over-analyzing the helicopters used. What should have been used in this "rescue" scene should have been a Huey, right? Or at least TC's AH-6 Little Bird (the same aircraft that his Island Hoppers chopper was)?
Just trying to stay on top of the mechanics . . . .
golf
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Ah, nice flub catch on the heli, golf! Yeah, it most definitely should have been a Huey. And you're certainly not "out of bounds". We've got flubs on guys who punch in non-sensical, random #'s at pay phones! It's just for fun.
And yeah, I believe the "stables" were only mentioned in the Pilot Movie.
And yeah, I believe the "stables" were only mentioned in the Pilot Movie.
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Excellent observations Golf.
I don't know if the Marines used the Bell 206A/Jet Ranger in Vietnam, but the U.S. Army did. In 1968 and the Bell 206A/Jet Ranger was selected for use in Vietnam by the Army and designated as the OH-58A Kiowa. The helicopters were used for a variety of missions, which included observation, medivac and were sometimes fitted with rockets and used for attack operations.
You are right, the Huey UH-1 would be better for transporting troops since it is larger, but a variety of helicopters were used in Vietnam for a variety of purposes. The "Loach" (Little Bird) wouldn't have been used, because it couldn't carry very many troops. That helicopter was used primarily for observation. Another helicopter that was common to the Marines especially for troop transport and rescue missions was the UH-34 Sea Horse. This would have been a more likely choice for TC, but as you pointed out, the producers had to use what was available at the time.
Now, TC is a U.S. Marine, and the question still remains whether that helicopter was used by the Marines. I imagine they did. Although each branch of service has their own budgets and procurement departments, one branch will often adopt and use a piece of equipment if it proves succsessful with other branches. For example, the M-16 Rifle used so widely by the Army and Marines in Vietnam, was actually first ordered for use in Vietnam by the U.S. Air Force. One of the reasons the Army and Marines adopted the M-16 was because they found that each soldier or Marine could carry twice as much ammunition because the size of the round (5.56mm) was smaller than ammunition used by its predecessor the M-14 Rifle which used 7.62mm. In addition the M-14 was made of wood and steel, and the M-16 was made partly of plastic, so the rifle itself was much lighter than the M-14. We often called it the "Mattel-Omatic" because Mattel reportedly made some of the plastic components for the M-16.
A flub I noticed during this episode was when Magnum and Ensign Healy were on the dock talking about Lt. Cook, Ens. Healy referred to a Japanese Zero. In referring to the Zero, he said "oh yeah, a 30 year old Japanese zero." Healy later explains that the Zero was shot down during the attack on Pearl Harbor. If that is the case, then the zero was more like 40 years old (39 to be precise) as this episode was aired in December 1980.
Regarding the reference to the "stables", I think (but not sure) that there may have been a reference to the stables in the episode "Jororo Farewell" (Season 4), when Danny rode off with Agatha's horse. Higgins, I think, was in the study with Magnum or someone and they heard the horse, so there may have been a reference to the stables since Agatha's horse was presumably a resident in the stables.
And Golf, please don't apologize for your analysis. Your observations are great, and the detail of your discussion is very impressive. I look forward to your future observations and flubs.
I don't know if the Marines used the Bell 206A/Jet Ranger in Vietnam, but the U.S. Army did. In 1968 and the Bell 206A/Jet Ranger was selected for use in Vietnam by the Army and designated as the OH-58A Kiowa. The helicopters were used for a variety of missions, which included observation, medivac and were sometimes fitted with rockets and used for attack operations.
You are right, the Huey UH-1 would be better for transporting troops since it is larger, but a variety of helicopters were used in Vietnam for a variety of purposes. The "Loach" (Little Bird) wouldn't have been used, because it couldn't carry very many troops. That helicopter was used primarily for observation. Another helicopter that was common to the Marines especially for troop transport and rescue missions was the UH-34 Sea Horse. This would have been a more likely choice for TC, but as you pointed out, the producers had to use what was available at the time.
Now, TC is a U.S. Marine, and the question still remains whether that helicopter was used by the Marines. I imagine they did. Although each branch of service has their own budgets and procurement departments, one branch will often adopt and use a piece of equipment if it proves succsessful with other branches. For example, the M-16 Rifle used so widely by the Army and Marines in Vietnam, was actually first ordered for use in Vietnam by the U.S. Air Force. One of the reasons the Army and Marines adopted the M-16 was because they found that each soldier or Marine could carry twice as much ammunition because the size of the round (5.56mm) was smaller than ammunition used by its predecessor the M-14 Rifle which used 7.62mm. In addition the M-14 was made of wood and steel, and the M-16 was made partly of plastic, so the rifle itself was much lighter than the M-14. We often called it the "Mattel-Omatic" because Mattel reportedly made some of the plastic components for the M-16.
A flub I noticed during this episode was when Magnum and Ensign Healy were on the dock talking about Lt. Cook, Ens. Healy referred to a Japanese Zero. In referring to the Zero, he said "oh yeah, a 30 year old Japanese zero." Healy later explains that the Zero was shot down during the attack on Pearl Harbor. If that is the case, then the zero was more like 40 years old (39 to be precise) as this episode was aired in December 1980.
Regarding the reference to the "stables", I think (but not sure) that there may have been a reference to the stables in the episode "Jororo Farewell" (Season 4), when Danny rode off with Agatha's horse. Higgins, I think, was in the study with Magnum or someone and they heard the horse, so there may have been a reference to the stables since Agatha's horse was presumably a resident in the stables.
And Golf, please don't apologize for your analysis. Your observations are great, and the detail of your discussion is very impressive. I look forward to your future observations and flubs.
The answer is obvious, old man. Logic is irrelevant. It's simply Tropical Madness. (J.Q. Higgins)
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Yes, the OH-58A Kiowa is the military version of the Bell 206A Jet Ranger. It is common practice for the military to provide a special designation to a civilian aircraft, rather than use the civilian name (Jet Ranger), in this case the OH-58A Kiowa.
For example, the U.S. Air Force purchases (and renames) aircraft commonly used in civilian roles, i.e., passenger jets, business jets, etc. Examples of these aircraft include: (1) KC-135 "Stratotanker" is the military version of the Boeing 707; (2) C-20 is the military version of the Gulfstream III manufactured by Gulfstream Aerospace Corp.; (3) C-21 is the military version of the 35A business jet manufactured by Learjet, Inc.; (4) C-32 is the military version of Boeing's 757-200; and (5) C-37A is the military version of the Gulfstream V manufactured by Gulfstream Aerospace Corp.
Let me know if you want specific sites to search, or you can search for " Bell 206A Jet Ranger/OH-58A Kiowa"; "Bell Helicopters Used In Vietnam", etc. I hope this helps, however, if you need more information, please let me know.
For example, the U.S. Air Force purchases (and renames) aircraft commonly used in civilian roles, i.e., passenger jets, business jets, etc. Examples of these aircraft include: (1) KC-135 "Stratotanker" is the military version of the Boeing 707; (2) C-20 is the military version of the Gulfstream III manufactured by Gulfstream Aerospace Corp.; (3) C-21 is the military version of the 35A business jet manufactured by Learjet, Inc.; (4) C-32 is the military version of Boeing's 757-200; and (5) C-37A is the military version of the Gulfstream V manufactured by Gulfstream Aerospace Corp.
Let me know if you want specific sites to search, or you can search for " Bell 206A Jet Ranger/OH-58A Kiowa"; "Bell Helicopters Used In Vietnam", etc. I hope this helps, however, if you need more information, please let me know.
The answer is obvious, old man. Logic is irrelevant. It's simply Tropical Madness. (J.Q. Higgins)
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Hey James,
I just emailed my brother-in-law who flew Hueys (UH-1) in Vietnam, whether it's possible for a pilot to fly more than one type of helicopter while in Vietnam. I believe it is, as I have friends that were pilots in the Air Force and Navy, and each of them flew several different types of aircraft while in the service. I'll let you know.
I just emailed my brother-in-law who flew Hueys (UH-1) in Vietnam, whether it's possible for a pilot to fly more than one type of helicopter while in Vietnam. I believe it is, as I have friends that were pilots in the Air Force and Navy, and each of them flew several different types of aircraft while in the service. I'll let you know.
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I know an attorney who flew Hueys in Vietnam, but I'm not sure which branch of the service he was in. He sent me a list of the helis he has flown, and I'm pretty sure a Kiowa was not one of the ones he listed that he has flown, but that's not saying no heli pilots in Vietnam flew different helis. I would guess probably that if a heli pilot could fly one type, he could fly just about any of them. I think the more puzzling question would be not COULD he, but would he be likely to? That is, if TC's specialty was the AH-6 Little Birds, would they put him in Kiowa on a rescue mission? How many soliders was he supposed to pick up? Weren't there about six guys on the ground? Would a Huey be more likely for that scenario? This is the kind of thing I just don't know.
I don't recall right now, but I'll watch for this research item, i.e. what type(s) of helicopter(s) is TC usually flying in the flashback sequences? I'm pretty sure we're confident he flew the Little Bird AH-6, which is the same as his Island Hoppers MD500D.
Hopefully, IH's brother-in-law can enlighten us. I'll see if I can get some information from my attorney acquaintance also.
golf
I don't recall right now, but I'll watch for this research item, i.e. what type(s) of helicopter(s) is TC usually flying in the flashback sequences? I'm pretty sure we're confident he flew the Little Bird AH-6, which is the same as his Island Hoppers MD500D.
Hopefully, IH's brother-in-law can enlighten us. I'll see if I can get some information from my attorney acquaintance also.
golf
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Okay Golf, I have some answers for you provided by my brother-in-law.
Now keep in mind, he was an Army pilot, not a Marine pilot. He says that he only flew the UH-1 (Huey) while in Vietnam and that usually helicopter pilots only flew one type of aircraft. During the series, I know there were several flash-back episodes showing TC flying different types of helicopters.
In "The Last Page" (season 2) TC was flying the UH-1 (Huey). As you know, "Don't Eat The Snow In Hawaii" (season 1) shows TC flying the OH-58 Kiowa. In "Home From The Sea" (season 4) I think TC is flying the OH-58 Kiowa when he drops Magnum off in the middle of the ocean with his surf board.
I can't recall if there is a flash-back of TC flying in "Did You See The Sunrise" (season 3). So, based on my brother-in-law's information, and the fact that TC is shown flying at least two (maybe 3) different types of aircraft, Golf's observation may be a flub.
I don't remember if TC was shown flying a Little Bird (500D) in any of the flash-back episodes. However, he could have obtained his rating on the 500D after he returned from Vietnam.
Typically you would want a UH-1 or a UH-34 (used by the USMC) for rescue missions and troop transports, as they were larger and could carry more troops.
Golf, here is the information regarding the start-up times of the Huey and 500D from your earlier post on a different thread ("Almost Home", I think). My brother-in-law said that in warm tropical conditions like Vietnam and Hawaii, the Huey takes about 1 minute to start-up and take off. He said the 500D would take about 45 seconds, as it has smaller mass/blades to turn. Hope this helps.
Now keep in mind, he was an Army pilot, not a Marine pilot. He says that he only flew the UH-1 (Huey) while in Vietnam and that usually helicopter pilots only flew one type of aircraft. During the series, I know there were several flash-back episodes showing TC flying different types of helicopters.
In "The Last Page" (season 2) TC was flying the UH-1 (Huey). As you know, "Don't Eat The Snow In Hawaii" (season 1) shows TC flying the OH-58 Kiowa. In "Home From The Sea" (season 4) I think TC is flying the OH-58 Kiowa when he drops Magnum off in the middle of the ocean with his surf board.
I can't recall if there is a flash-back of TC flying in "Did You See The Sunrise" (season 3). So, based on my brother-in-law's information, and the fact that TC is shown flying at least two (maybe 3) different types of aircraft, Golf's observation may be a flub.
I don't remember if TC was shown flying a Little Bird (500D) in any of the flash-back episodes. However, he could have obtained his rating on the 500D after he returned from Vietnam.
Typically you would want a UH-1 or a UH-34 (used by the USMC) for rescue missions and troop transports, as they were larger and could carry more troops.
Golf, here is the information regarding the start-up times of the Huey and 500D from your earlier post on a different thread ("Almost Home", I think). My brother-in-law said that in warm tropical conditions like Vietnam and Hawaii, the Huey takes about 1 minute to start-up and take off. He said the 500D would take about 45 seconds, as it has smaller mass/blades to turn. Hope this helps.
The answer is obvious, old man. Logic is irrelevant. It's simply Tropical Madness. (J.Q. Higgins)
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IH,
Thanks a lot! However, I thought in "Home from the Sea," TC dropped TM off with his surfski from his IH MD500D. What access to other helos did he HAVE in Hawaii?? If he was in one other than his own, THAT should be a flub, shouldn't it?
As to take off time, I find that hard to believe, unless it was a chopper that wasn't totally cold. I FLEW a Robinson 22 IN HAWAII and it took a good 4-5 minutes to get up enough torque and rotor speed to lift off, and it's a chopper that holds ONLY two people (much lighter weight than a MD500D, much less a Huey). Granted, it was starting from dead cold, not a re-firing of an recently flown aircraft. But maybe the choppers in 'Nam never had time to cool off (except at night, I guess; of course, it wasn't exactly cool there at night, either, was it?). But your brother-in-law is the one who flew these a/c, so I would think his statements should carry more weight (no pun intended!) than mine -- I just was in a R22 a couple of times (but both of them took a long time to warm up).
So the detail analysis continues! I love this stuff!!
golf
P.S. TC WAS in the military equivalent (AH-6 Little Bird) of his IH MD500D in the second part of "Did You See the Sunrise?" at the Japanese temple. That's what he was piloting when the Bell 206 came in and hovered beside him over the pond.
Thanks a lot! However, I thought in "Home from the Sea," TC dropped TM off with his surfski from his IH MD500D. What access to other helos did he HAVE in Hawaii?? If he was in one other than his own, THAT should be a flub, shouldn't it?
As to take off time, I find that hard to believe, unless it was a chopper that wasn't totally cold. I FLEW a Robinson 22 IN HAWAII and it took a good 4-5 minutes to get up enough torque and rotor speed to lift off, and it's a chopper that holds ONLY two people (much lighter weight than a MD500D, much less a Huey). Granted, it was starting from dead cold, not a re-firing of an recently flown aircraft. But maybe the choppers in 'Nam never had time to cool off (except at night, I guess; of course, it wasn't exactly cool there at night, either, was it?). But your brother-in-law is the one who flew these a/c, so I would think his statements should carry more weight (no pun intended!) than mine -- I just was in a R22 a couple of times (but both of them took a long time to warm up).
So the detail analysis continues! I love this stuff!!
golf
P.S. TC WAS in the military equivalent (AH-6 Little Bird) of his IH MD500D in the second part of "Did You See the Sunrise?" at the Japanese temple. That's what he was piloting when the Bell 206 came in and hovered beside him over the pond.
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Hey Golf,golfmobile wrote:Thanks a lot! However, I thought in "Home from the Sea," TC dropped TM off with his surfski from his IH MD500D. What access to other helos did he HAVE in Hawaii?? If he was in one other than his own, THAT should be a flub, shouldn't it?
P.S. TC WAS in the military equivalent (AH-6 Little Bird) of his IH MD500D in the second part of "Did You See the Sunrise?" at the Japanese temple. That's what he was piloting when the Bell 206 came in and hovered beside him over the pond.
Great discussion.
In "Home From The Sea" I was referring to the scene where Magnum is floating on his back thinking of ways that he could be rescued and he mentions planes and TC's Chopper, and says "maybe he's already out looking for me" then says "no, why would he, he knows you spend the 4th alone. He's known that since Nam." Just then the scene flashes back to Vietnam and to TC and Magnum in a Kiowa where TC drops Magnum off on his surf board, where Magnum plans on paddling to an Island 5 miles away to be picked up in a couple of days by TC.
I remember TC flying the Little Bird in "Did You See The Sunrise" after Nuzzo helped him commandeer it and then flew to the Valley of the Temples, but I couldn't recall if that episode had a "flash-back" scene showing TC flying the Little Bird in Vietnam. If there was such a flash-back scene, then TC would have been credited with flying at least 3 different types of helicopters in Vietnam, i.e., Huey UH-1, OH-58 Kiowa, and the Little Bird/Loach, but again, I don't remember if they ever showed TC flying the Little Bird in Vietnam.
Regarding the start-up times, keep in mind that the Army helicopters had powerful turbine engines in them. A Robinson 22 is a very small 2-seat helicopter powered by a 4-cylinder engine with about 131 horsepower, and is not nearly as powerful as a Huey or Little Bird. So, I don't think you can compare the R22 with either the Huey or Little Bird in regards to start-up time. You are right, he flew combat missions in Vietnam for more than a year, so I am confident the information he provided is accurate.
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IH,
Okay, I haven't seen "Home from the Sea" for a while, so I forgot the TC flashback drop-off. Mea culpa, thanks for straightening me out on that one.
However, TC's flying the Kiowa begs the question: If we never saw TC fly the Little Bird/Loach/AH-6 (military version of his MD500D IH chopper) in the 'Nam flashbacks and he was usually in a Huey or the Kiowa, why didn't he buy a Bell Jetranger for his IH business if that is the heli he was more familiar with than the MD500D?
The prices would be close to the same (as I check the internet now), there are more Jetrangers available (therefore a better bargaining advantage for price), and the Jetranger seats one more "tourist/passenger" than the MD500.
Again, we are probably attributing too much logic to a situation that was "make use of what you have at the time and place needed" during the actual making of the TV show.
Or maybe James should move the last few posts over to a thread on TC's chopper (if there is one . . . .).
I've emailed my attorney buddy about inter-service use of helis in Vietnam and pilots' flying different a/c. I'll report back if I ever hear anything from him.
golf
Okay, I haven't seen "Home from the Sea" for a while, so I forgot the TC flashback drop-off. Mea culpa, thanks for straightening me out on that one.
However, TC's flying the Kiowa begs the question: If we never saw TC fly the Little Bird/Loach/AH-6 (military version of his MD500D IH chopper) in the 'Nam flashbacks and he was usually in a Huey or the Kiowa, why didn't he buy a Bell Jetranger for his IH business if that is the heli he was more familiar with than the MD500D?
The prices would be close to the same (as I check the internet now), there are more Jetrangers available (therefore a better bargaining advantage for price), and the Jetranger seats one more "tourist/passenger" than the MD500.
Again, we are probably attributing too much logic to a situation that was "make use of what you have at the time and place needed" during the actual making of the TV show.
Or maybe James should move the last few posts over to a thread on TC's chopper (if there is one . . . .).
I've emailed my attorney buddy about inter-service use of helis in Vietnam and pilots' flying different a/c. I'll report back if I ever hear anything from him.
golf
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