Don't Eat the Snow in Hawaii (1) (1.1)

[golfmobile]

I know an attorney who flew Hueys in Vietnam, but I'm not sure which branch of the service he was in. He sent me a list of the helis he has flown, and I'm pretty sure a Kiowa was not one of the ones he listed that he has flown, but that's not saying no heli pilots in Vietnam flew different helis. I would guess probably that if a heli pilot could fly one type, he could fly just about any of them. I think the more puzzling question would be not COULD he, but would he be likely to? That is, if TC's specialty was the AH-6 Little Birds, would they put him in Kiowa on a rescue mission? How many soliders was he supposed to pick up? Weren't there about six guys on the ground? Would a Huey be more likely for that scenario? This is the kind of thing I just don't know.

I don't recall right now, but I'll watch for this research item, i.e. what type(s) of helicopter(s) is TC usually flying in the flashback sequences? I'm pretty sure we're confident he flew the Little Bird AH-6, which is the same as his Island Hoppers MD500D.

Hopefully, IH's brother-in-law can enlighten us. I'll see if I can get some information from my attorney acquaintance also.

golf

[IslandHopper]

Okay Golf, I have some answers for you provided by my brother-in-law.

Now keep in mind, he was an Army pilot, not a Marine pilot. He says that he only flew the UH-1 (Huey) while in Vietnam and that usually helicopter pilots only flew one type of aircraft. During the series, I know there were several flash-back episodes showing TC flying different types of helicopters.

In "The Last Page" (season 2) TC was flying the UH-1 (Huey). As you know, "Don't Eat The Snow In Hawaii" (season 1) shows TC flying the OH-58 Kiowa. In "Home From The Sea" (season 4) I think TC is flying the OH-58 Kiowa when he drops Magnum off in the middle of the ocean with his surf board.

I can't recall if there is a flash-back of TC flying in "Did You See The Sunrise" (season 3). So, based on my brother-in-law's information, and the fact that TC is shown flying at least two (maybe 3) different types of aircraft, Golf's observation may be a flub.

I don't remember if TC was shown flying a Little Bird (500D) in any of the flash-back episodes. However, he could have obtained his rating on the 500D after he returned from Vietnam.

Typically you would want a UH-1 or a UH-34 (used by the USMC) for rescue missions and troop transports, as they were larger and could carry more troops.

Golf, here is the information regarding the start-up times of the Huey and 500D from your earlier post on a different thread ("Almost Home", I think). My brother-in-law said that in warm tropical conditions like Vietnam and Hawaii, the Huey takes about 1 minute to start-up and take off. He said the 500D would take about 45 seconds, as it has smaller mass/blades to turn. Hope this helps.

[golfmobile]

IH,

Thanks a lot! However, I thought in "Home from the Sea," TC dropped TM off with his surfski from his IH MD500D. What access to other helos did he HAVE in Hawaii?? If he was in one other than his own, THAT should be a flub, shouldn't it?

As to take off time, I find that hard to believe, unless it was a chopper that wasn't totally cold. I FLEW a Robinson 22 IN HAWAII and it took a good 4-5 minutes to get up enough torque and rotor speed to lift off, and it's a chopper that holds ONLY two people (much lighter weight than a MD500D, much less a Huey). Granted, it was starting from dead cold, not a re-firing of an recently flown aircraft. But maybe the choppers in 'Nam never had time to cool off (except at night, I guess; of course, it wasn't exactly cool there at night, either, was it?). But your brother-in-law is the one who flew these a/c, so I would think his statements should carry more weight (no pun intended!) than mine -- I just was in a R22 a couple of times (but both of them took a long time to warm up).

So the detail analysis continues! I love this stuff!!

golf

P.S. TC WAS in the military equivalent (AH-6 Little Bird) of his IH MD500D in the second part of "Did You See the Sunrise?" at the Japanese temple. That's what he was piloting when the Bell 206 came in and hovered beside him over the pond.

[IslandHopper]

Thanks a lot! However, I thought in "Home from the Sea," TC dropped TM off with his surfski from his IH MD500D. What access to other helos did he HAVE in Hawaii?? If he was in one other than his own, THAT should be a flub, shouldn't it?

P.S. TC WAS in the military equivalent (AH-6 Little Bird) of his IH MD500D in the second part of "Did You See the Sunrise?" at the Japanese temple. That's what he was piloting when the Bell 206 came in and hovered beside him over the pond.

Hey Golf,

Great discussion.

In "Home From The Sea" I was referring to the scene where Magnum is floating on his back thinking of ways that he could be rescued and he mentions planes and TC's Chopper, and says "maybe he's already out looking for me" then says "no, why would he, he knows you spend the 4th alone. He's known that since Nam." Just then the scene flashes back to Vietnam and to TC and Magnum in a Kiowa where TC drops Magnum off on his surf board, where Magnum plans on paddling to an Island 5 miles away to be picked up in a couple of days by TC.

I remember TC flying the Little Bird in "Did You See The Sunrise" after Nuzzo helped him commandeer it and then flew to the Valley of the Temples, but I couldn't recall if that episode had a "flash-back" scene showing TC flying the Little Bird in Vietnam. If there was such a flash-back scene, then TC would have been credited with flying at least 3 different types of helicopters in Vietnam, i.e., Huey UH-1, OH-58 Kiowa, and the Little Bird/Loach, but again, I don't remember if they ever showed TC flying the Little Bird in Vietnam.

Regarding the start-up times, keep in mind that the Army helicopters had powerful turbine engines in them. A Robinson 22 is a very small 2-seat helicopter powered by a 4-cylinder engine with about 131 horsepower, and is not nearly as powerful as a Huey or Little Bird. So, I don't think you can compare the R22 with either the Huey or Little Bird in regards to start-up time. You are right, he flew combat missions in Vietnam for more than a year, so I am confident the information he provided is accurate.

[golfmobile]

IH,

Okay, I haven't seen "Home from the Sea" for a while, so I forgot the TC flashback drop-off. Mea culpa, thanks for straightening me out on that one.

However, TC's flying the Kiowa begs the question: If we never saw TC fly the Little Bird/Loach/AH-6 (military version of his MD500D IH chopper) in the 'Nam flashbacks and he was usually in a Huey or the Kiowa, why didn't he buy a Bell Jetranger for his IH business if that is the heli he was more familiar with than the MD500D?

The prices would be close to the same (as I check the internet now), there are more Jetrangers available (therefore a better bargaining advantage for price), and the Jetranger seats one more "tourist/passenger" than the MD500.

Again, we are probably attributing too much logic to a situation that was "make use of what you have at the time and place needed" during the actual making of the TV show.

Or maybe James should move the last few posts over to a thread on TC's chopper (if there is one . . . .).

I've emailed my attorney buddy about inter-service use of helis in Vietnam and pilots' flying different a/c. I'll report back if I ever hear anything from him.

golf

[golfmobile]

Okay, I heard from my attorney acquaintance re helicopters in Vietnam. Here's what he said:

1. In Vietnam when I was there 1965-66 The Army and the Marines had Bell Hueys, Hughes' OH-58's and later McDonnell Douglas LOH's with guns or the AH-6. Hueys were used for both combat assault troop carriers and the B models were our gunships. Same for the Marines and the B model gunships were replaced by the Cobra. None of these are Jet Rangers. The Navy did not fly combat assault and may have had some Hueys to ferry to and fro from ships offshore. They also may have had some activity with the Navy riverene operations in the delta (John Kerry's "claim to fame") but I didn't know of any.

2. We did not interchange aircraft but did have joint operations with the Marines not the Navy. So TC rightfully could have flown Hueys, OH-58's and later A-6. He could have had some contact with Navy but not likely except for the riverine operations in the Delta. There could be some literary license to make the Magnum connection work.

3. I flew everything in the Army inventory. In Vietnam I flew Hueys both assault troop and gunships and that is all our unit had. It is possible like in the 1st Cavalry to fly Hueys and OH-58's and later LOH's and the same could be true of Marine units.

4. I have been in combat situations where your aircraft is always "ready to go", to jump in the pilot's seat and crank it up and pull pitch within 30 seconds or a little less when the zone gets hot, but not 5 or 10 seconds.

So as I understand the above, it's not a flub for TC to fly almost any helicopter that was used in 'Nam (though I doubt he flew the Cobras or Apaches). Though I am still confused by what he says about the Jetranger. I can't find a HUGHES OH-58 on the internet, and the Bell OH-58 Kiowa is definitely the military version of the Jetranger.

Well, anyway, I guess this fairly wraps this up for now. Sort of . . . . until I come up with some OTHER idiotic question . . . .

golf

[J.J. Walters]

Nice work guys! I must say, it's been a very informative discussion. I learned quite a bit.

So then, no flub, but I've added a "Note" for this episode:

The chopper that T.C. flies in the Vietnam War flashback sequences is the OH-58 Kiowa.

[IslandHopper]

Nice work guys! I must say, it's been a very informative discussion. I learned quite a bit.

So then, no flub, but I've added a "Note" for this episode:

The chopper that T.C. flies in the Vietnam War flashback sequences is the OH-58 Kiowa.

James,

Don't forget that TC also flys a "Huey" UH-1 "Iroquois" in the episode "The Last Page."

[J.J. Walters]

Your wish is my command, IH. The Last Page is also this week's "Spotlight Episode".

[N1095A]

Don't forget in "Did You See The Sunrise?" TC talks of escaping from kids wanting their bubble gum in a "beat up Cobra".

Okay Golf, I have some answers for you provided by my brother-in-law.

Now keep in mind, he was an Army pilot, not a Marine pilot. He says that he only flew the UH-1 (Huey) while in Vietnam and that usually helicopter pilots only flew one type of aircraft. During the series, I know there were several flash-back episodes showing TC flying different types of helicopters.

In "The Last Page" (season 2) TC was flying the UH-1 (Huey). As you know, "Don't Eat The Snow In Hawaii" (season 1) shows TC flying the OH-58 Kiowa. In "Home From The Sea" (season 4) I think TC is flying the OH-58 Kiowa when he drops Magnum off in the middle of the ocean with his surf board.

I can't recall if there is a flash-back of TC flying in "Did You See The Sunrise" (season 3). So, based on my brother-in-law's information, and the fact that TC is shown flying at least two (maybe 3) different types of aircraft, Golf's observation may be a flub.

I don't remember if TC was shown flying a Little Bird (500D) in any of the flash-back episodes. However, he could have obtained his rating on the 500D after he returned from Vietnam.

Typically you would want a UH-1 or a UH-34 (used by the USMC) for rescue missions and troop transports, as they were larger and could carry more troops.

Golf, here is the information regarding the start-up times of the Huey and 500D from your earlier post on a different thread ("Almost Home", I think). My brother-in-law said that in warm tropical conditions like Vietnam and Hawaii, the Huey takes about 1 minute to start-up and take off. He said the 500D would take about 45 seconds, as it has smaller mass/blades to turn. Hope this helps.

[IslandHopper]

Don't forget in "Did You See The Sunrise?" TC talks of escaping from kids wanting their bubble gum in a "beat up Cobra".

N,

Your comment about the "Cobra" reminded me that TC is in deed credited with flying a Cobra (AH-1) in Vietnam. In "Thicker Than Blood" (season 1), it is revealed that TC was indebted to Joey (the buddy he tried to smuggle into the Islands) for "pulling him out of a burning Cobra." I believe it was Magnum who mentions the Cobra.

[IslandHopper]

Despite our extensive discussion regarding the OH-58 Kiowa featured in the pilot and flown by TC, I forgot to mention the flub associated with this helicopter:

1. The flub occurs after Magnum empties the envelope containing Dan Cook's personal belongings including his "Team Ring." After emptying the envelope, Magnum flashes back to Vietnam. Watch for the third shot of the helicopter (OH-58 Kiowa). In this close-up shot, the helicopter is seen flying across the screen from the right to left. Look at the tail section of the helicoper and you will see that the word "MARINES" is reversed/backwards as it appears the negative was reversed in this shot. All of the other letters and numbers are obviously reversed as well. The "HY" on the vertical stabilizer should be "YH" and so on. This same flub is also visible in Part 2 of the pilot right after you see Magnum, Phillipe and the rest of the Team waiting at the LZ to be picked up by TC. Phillipe tells to Magnum to take the Team to the chopper and says that he'll cover and Magnum says "Don't wait too long." Then you see the helicopter with the reversed images.

2. A flub involving the "Team Ring" actually occurs just before the reverse image flub mentioned above. As Magnum is emptying the envelope onto the table you will see several other items on the table including Dan's dog tags and keys. However, these items are off to the side and as Magnum shakes Dan's ring from the envelope it falls onto the table and comes to rest far away from the other items. The close-up of the "Team Ring", however, shows it right next to, and almost touching the set of keys that weren't there when the ring fell out onto the table.

3. As you look at the close-up of the "Team Ring" you can tell that the right lower bar is not symmetric with the corresponding bar on the left side. It is not as wide and seems flawed. The flub is that a close-up of the same ring is shown in the ending credits, but the imperfection is now on the left side of the ring, not the right as before. The other thing I noticed about the ring in the ending credits is that the wooden table it is resting on is much darker than the table shown in the guest house for the above described scene. Additionally, the ring from the envelope doesn't appear to be the same ring worn by Dan Cook after he was punched in the stomach and is seen grabbing on to the chain-link fence. The imperfection does not seem to appear on the ring worn by Dan in this scene.

4. Magnum's uniform does not include the S.E.A.L. Badge. Instead, he is seen wearing the "Surface Warfare" Badge. Magnum is not seen wearing the S.E.A.L. Badge until "Memories Are Forever" (season 2).

5. FLUB FOR PART 2: After Magnum and the rest of the "Team" load up onto the chopper, Phillipe is seen at the LZ firing his M-16 Rifle. As he is firing you can see the Hollywood "Blank Adapter" just inside the "flash supressor." If you look closely you will see a small circular object (not to be confused with the actual barrel of the rifle). Blank Adapters are used when firing blanks from a rifle like the M-16, because without them you would not be able to fire multiple/continuous shots without re-cocking the rifle after each blank fired. The "Hollywood Blank Adapter" is a small adapter that fits inside of the flash suppressor so that it is hidden from sight to provide realism. Other blank adapters are larger and bulkier and fit on the outside of the flash suppressor. Their purpose is not aesthetic, but functionality. They work in the same way as the Hollywood Blank Adapters, but they are clearly visible.

There has been some debate as to which hand the "Team Ring" should be worn. It has been mentioned that the "Team Ring" is supposed to be worn on the right hand. I don't know if this is correct or not, but in the pilot-flash back scenes most of the team members are wearing the ring on the left hand. Those include Rick, Phillipe, the RTO and the guy firing the flare. At the end of the episode, Magnum removes Phillipe's ring from his left hand.

[J.J. Walters]

Wow, IH, Wow!

Any thoughts on how a "reversed negative" ends up in the final cut? It almost seems like would have to be intentional, although I have no idea why they would want it to be that way.

You know, I've been looking and looking for the reference to wearing the "Team Ring" on the right hand, but I still havn't found it. Due to lack of evidence, I've removed this bit of ring trivia from the "Team Ring" page. If anyone finds a reference to it, let me know.

[golfmobile]

James,

For what's worth -- and I admit I may have lost the thread here about the wearing of the team ring -- but I thought the guys always wore it on their right hands, leaving the left hand/fingers available for a wedding ring, should that ever come into play.

I was watching "The Taking of Dick McWilliams" tonight and TM was shown wearing the team ring in several close-ups, and it was on his right hand.

If that helps . . . .

golf

[J.J. Walters]

golf,

That's true. They usually wear it on their right hand, but there have been many times where they wear it on their left hand, as well ("China Doll", "No Need to Know", "Tran Quoc Jones" and others). So far, I havn't found any specific mention that it MUST be worn on the right hand. Maybe it will pop up in Season Seven or Eight.