Thomas Magnum's Gun - Some Documentation

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#21 Post by only looking »

:shock: ....LOL The world of Magnum PI.
It made me do it Higgins!!!

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#22 Post by J.J. Walters »

MaximRecoil wrote:It is a Star Model BM 9mm playing the role of a Star Model B 9mm which is playing the role of a Colt Government Model 9mm which is playing the role of a Colt Government Model .45 ACP.
Wild!

Maybe Magnum just has a bunch of different handguns? He normally carries the Colt .45, but maybe he sometimes likes to break out the Star Model? And the Pocket 9? And the Walther PPK? ;)
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#23 Post by MaximRecoil »

James J. Walters wrote:
MaximRecoil wrote:It is a Star Model BM 9mm playing the role of a Star Model B 9mm which is playing the role of a Colt Government Model 9mm which is playing the role of a Colt Government Model .45 ACP.
Wild!

Maybe Magnum just has a bunch of different handguns? He normally carries the Colt .45, but maybe he sometimes likes to break out the Star Model? And the Pocket 9? And the Walther PPK? ;)
LOL

Magnum must be a propmaster on the side, because they are pretty much the only people in the U.S. that have/had Star Model Bs. One even made its way into Pulp Fiction, even though by that time, there was no need for them anymore (not even a need for 9mm versions of 1911s). In fact, Travolta's character carried an actual 1911-pattern .45 ACP (Auto-Ordnance brand), but Jackson's character carried a Star Model B 9mm.

My theory is that it had been sitting in inventory since before the 1970s, and had already been done up long ago with the chrome or nickel finish and pearl grips. Rather than finding another Star Model B (which aren't common in the U.S., and were probably even scarce among Hollywood gun rental firms by the mid-'90s, considering no one had really needed them since 1971), they just did up an el cheapo Auto-Ordnance 1911A1-pattern .45 with the same chrome or nickel finish and pearl grips, so that they could have the "matching" pair that they needed for the movie.

They used a real Colt Government Model (9mm version) in the pilot movie for both Magnum's gun and Philippe's Vietnam flashback gun (Philippe's gun at the end in the bathroom scene appeared to be a Walther PPK from what little was shown of it).

Were the episodes filmed in the same order that they aired in? If so then China Doll was the first regular show of the series (not counting the pilot movie). Maybe someone got a deal on the Stars and figured they would be "close enough" for use on the regular episodes. Fortunately, I don't think the Stars ever showed up again (though I'll be keeping an eye out). Maybe someone complained; possibly even Selleck (he is a gun enthusiast after all).

Ironically, China Doll is one of the episodes where Magnum's gun is directly referred to as a "forty-five".

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#24 Post by J.J. Walters »

National Firearms Museum Senior Curator Phil Schreier discusses Magnum's gun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kt7yu1Y6_lE
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#25 Post by paperwar »

Thanks for the link!

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#26 Post by linkinzy »

only looking wrote:http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7PbGEP1owXc/R ... istols.jpg

Here's yet another photo.
Wow they are amazing, for me as a gun lover I can say they are cool.
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My blank adapted 9mm 1911

#27 Post by Sean Thornton »

I have been a big Magnum fan since the beginning. I have always loved the 1911 .45/9mm pistol he carried. Since I now also do WWII reenacting I thought I would blank adapt a 1911 in 9mm and see how it works. I had previously done a .45 but was not pleased with the way it worked. My 9mm blank adapted works fantastic, not 100% but then none of them do. Blanks are cheap since I make them from .223 cases. So for about 10 cents a round it is a blast to shoot.

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#28 Post by MaximRecoil »

J.J. Walters wrote:National Firearms Museum Senior Curator Phil Schreier discusses Magnum's gun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kt7yu1Y6_lE
I never saw this post, and now that video has been removed. Do you know if it is available anywhere else?

By the way, the National Firearms Museum has a couple of nice high resolution pictures of Magnum's pistol on their site now:

Image

The high resolution images (much higher than the one above) can be found here (click on the download image button there).

I may have mentioned it before, but I don't believe those grips were ever used on the show. Those are USGI brown plastic M1911A1 grips. I've only seen walnut grips on the show.

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#29 Post by J.J. Walters »

I can't seem to find it anymore, anywhere! Sorry.
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Re: Thomas Magnum's Gun - Some Documentation

#30 Post by Sam »

Bump

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Re: Thomas Magnum's Gun - Some Documentation

#31 Post by Sean Thornton »

The 1911 has been around for over 100 years now. Magnum, although he used other handguns, the 1911 was a great choice for his character. They always stated his 1911 was a .45 but even in the beginning of the show it has him shoving a magazine into a 9mm 1911. The magazine is a dead give away. TM's 1911 always sounded like a cannon going off which I always thought was a good touch.

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Re: Thomas Magnum's Gun - Some Documentation

#32 Post by Sean Thornton »

As most all of you already know Magnum used a 1911 in 9mm but it was always stated it was a .45. 9mm blanks worked better than the .45 blanks according to the movie people. Miami Vice used the Bren Ten as carried by Sonny Crockett, well kind of. Since there were no 10mm blanks his Bren Ten was actually a Bren .45. Evidently the .45 blanks did function well enough in the Bren at least until he changed guns in the 3rd season.

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#33 Post by MaximRecoil »

MaximRecoil wrote:I don't think the Stars ever showed up again (though I'll be keeping an eye out).
I noticed another appearance of the Star Model BM:

Image

That's from season 1, episode 14 ("Adelaide"). It's a brief insert during the scene where there's a shootout after they set fire to the barn. Magnum has his usual Colt Government Model during that scene, except for during that insert. Not only is that not the right pistol, but it isn't the right person holding it either (that guy is obviously not Tom Selleck).

The same Star Model BM shows up in two more inserts near the end of the same episode in the barn:

Image

(In addition to the wrong pistol, whoever is standing in for Selleck in that insert is wearing the wrong sneakers [Nike instead of Puma])

Image

I never noticed it before because those scenes are at night and it's hard to see the pistol clearly without brightening the picture (it is on my monitor at least).

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Re: Thomas Magnum's Gun - Some Documentation

#34 Post by Rands »

As to wood vs plastic grips, I can add a few things based on my military service. All of the 1911s or 1911A1s in military service had been through arsenal rebuild at least once. The original 1911s with flat mainspring housing, long trigger, no finger scallops, walnut grips, and nicely applied blued finish, went through arsenal rebuild, eventually resembling the 1911A1s.

The 1911A1s were very much the same pistol, with numerous improvements. The first was the nicely applied blued finish was replaced by the much easier to maintain parkerizing. Parkerizing being a much more porous surface held lubricating oil to the firearm metal surface much better reducing the amount of surface rusting and easing mechanical operation. This was especially true in wet climates, with the pistol residing in a wet leather holster. Those pistols wearing a blued finish, eventually went into a parkerizing tank, and emerged as the gray-green firearms known in U.S. Military Service.

Also, the walnut grips were replaced by the much more practical brown plastic grips, as the plastic grips would not absorb moisture like their walnut counterparts. It was easier to break the plastic grips, than the walnut, but again the plastic would not get moisture soaked. The flat mainspring housing was replaced with an arched mainspring housing, which in my opinion made the firearm point more naturally. And, as the arched mainspring housing increased the overall grip diameter, a short trigger, with a textured or "checkered" trigger shoe, replaced the long 1911 trigger. The finger scallops were also added making the trigger easier to access.

In my many units, I only saw pistols in 1911A1 configuration. They were from many manufacturers, and all were World War Two production. We had several Remington Rands, Union Switch and Signals, but I never saw a Colt, or Singer Sewing Machine, in a military arms room. The listed replacement cost for a 1911A1 was listed at about $ 100 in the late 70s and early 80s. More than a few thought about losing their 1911A1, and paying the $ 100 for replacement. Of course, that didn't include the Article 32 Investigation that was bound to follow, that could lead to a host of problems, ranging from non judicial punishment to court martial. When weighed in the balance, most were smart enough to make sure their issued firearm was properly returned to the unit's arms room.

In the series, there are numerous inferences that Magnum's 1911A1 was "liberated" during his Vietnam service. Weapons accountability is paramount in the military. I knew a few truly lost weapons, but they were few and far between. One of the units to which I was assigned spent a 3 day period searching a several acre area to find a stolen M-16A1. That M-16A1 was eventually recovered after a lengthy Army CID investigation, and the soldier who stole it had a Fort Leavenworth mailing address for 20 or so years.

However, in a long term conflict area, or high intensity conflict area, weapons are available. A gentleman who I have known for several years, was a child in the German Reich. When the war ended, he said that firearms and weapons of every kind had been abandoned the Wehrmacht. I was told, that numerous of his neighbors grabbed what they deemed necessary, fearing Soviet occupation, or Soviet invasion of the western German sectors.

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Re: Thomas Magnum's Gun - Some Documentation

#35 Post by MaximRecoil »

Rands wrote:The 1911A1s were very much the same pistol, with numerous improvements. The first was the nicely applied blued finish was replaced by the much easier to maintain parkerizing. Parkerizing being a much more porous surface held lubricating oil to the firearm metal surface much better reducing the amount of surface rusting and easing mechanical operation. This was especially true in wet climates, with the pistol residing in a wet leather holster. Those pistols wearing a blued finish, eventually went into a parkerizing tank, and emerged as the gray-green firearms known in U.S. Military Service.

Also, the walnut grips were replaced by the much more practical brown plastic grips, as the plastic grips would not absorb moisture like their walnut counterparts. It was easier to break the plastic grips, than the walnut, but again the plastic would not get moisture soaked.
Parkerizing and plastic grips weren't part of the A1 changes. The original M1911A1s, starting with the early Colt M1911-to-M1911A1 transitional models in 1924, were blued (Du-Lite) and had fully-checkered walnut grips (the full checkering was an A1 change; the M1911 grips had diamond shapes around the grip screw holes which were left uncheckered). All 500 Singer M1911A1s were blued with walnut grips. The thing is: comparatively few M1911A1s were made prior to WWII. Around the time that production ramped up for WWII, they went with the cheaper Parkerizing and plastic grips.
In my many units, I only saw pistols in 1911A1 configuration. They were from many manufacturers, and all were World War Two production. We had several Remington Rands, Union Switch and Signals, but I never saw a Colt, or Singer Sewing Machine, in a military arms room.

Remington Rand (which was a typewriter company) made more M1911A1s than any other manufacturer, about 900,000 of them. Next was Colt, with about 400,000. I'm surprised you saw US&S M1911A1s, but no Colts, considering they only made about 50,000 of them.
The listed replacement cost for a 1911A1 was listed at about $ 100 in the late 70s and early 80s. More than a few thought about losing their 1911A1, and paying the $ 100 for replacement. Of course, that didn't include the Article 32 Investigation that was bound to follow, that could lead to a host of problems, ranging from non judicial punishment to court martial. When weighed in the balance, most were smart enough to make sure their issued firearm was properly returned to the unit's arms room.

I wonder what they did with that $100; they certainly didn't buy a new M1911A1 with it. Not a single M1911A1 was purchased by Uncle Sam after 1945. Even the Marines had to scrounge around for decent M1911A1 frames in existing inventory to use as the basis for their MEU(SOC) pistol builds, and eventually resorted to using aftermarket commercial parts on those USGI frames from 1945 or earlier, such as slides from Springfield Armory, Inc. (not to be confused with the real Springfield Armory, which was a U.S. government arsenal which made some M1911s [but no M1911A1s] for the military). They did this right up until 2012 when they bought up to 12,000 new 1911-type pistols from Colt which they designated "M45A1" (which could be thought of as an "M1911A2").
In the series, there are numerous inferences that Magnum's 1911A1 was "liberated" during his Vietnam service.

Yes, that seems to be what they were going for. Magnum's commercial Colt Series 70 Government Model can't truly pass for any M1911A1 ever built, but they did try to make it look somewhat like an M1911A1. For example, the plain (no medallions) fully-checkered walnut grips on Magnum's pistol were used on early M1911A1s and their commercial Colt Government Model counterparts. They also installed an original-style partial-shelf thumb safety on Magnum's pistol (though this came later in the series), which was on all M1911s and M1911A1s, as well as pre-1950 commercial Colt Government Models. From the factory, Magnum's S70 CGM would have come with a full-shelf thumb safety and fully-checkered walnut grips with silver Colt medallions.

There were at least three different props used for Magnum's pistol (not counting the Star Model B and BM anomalies), or possibly the same prop at three different stages of modifications:

1. Colt S70 CGM 9mm Luger with nickel-plated trigger (some S70s came like that stock), stock full-shelf thumb safety, replacement grips (fully checkered walnut, no medallions).
2. Same as above except with a blued trigger (some S70s came stock like that as well).
3. Same as #2 except with a partial-shelf thumb safety.

The one in the NRA's museum has USGI M1911A1 brown plastic grips, though I never saw anything but walnut grips on the show.

The closest USGI match to Magnum's pistol would be a rare and valuable Singer, because that's the only one which had a polished blue finish (other early M1911A1s had a brushed finish applied to the steel prior to bluing). Magnum's pistol, like all Colt Government Models made since about 1950, only had polished flats; the rounds were matte (sandblasted). No M1911 or M1911A1 had a polished flats, matte rounds finish. The Singers had polished flats and rounds.

Also, Magnum's pistol, like all S70 9mms and .38 Supers, had a lowered ejection port. All M1911s and M1911A1s had a standard ejection port. Even S70 .45 ACPs had a standard ejection port.

If I had to pass off an S70 9mm as an M1911A1 onscreen, in addition to the obvious things like adding a mainspring housing with a lanyard loop, partial-shelf thumb safety, wide-spur hammer, etc., I'd file off the Colt Series 70 markings from the slide and put Singer markings on there, along with M1911-stye sights, and give the steel a full-polished finish before rebluing. I'd also fully-blue the barrel, including the chamber hood (instead of the in-the-white finish that commercial Colts have had for ages). Then I'd write a scene where someone berates Magnum for having had a gunsmith lower the ejection port on a Singer (which was rare and valuable even in the '80s). That would be my way of hanging a lampshade on the fact that I was stuck with a factory-lowered ejection port on the prop gun. It would also inject a bit of typical Magnum, P.I. humor as Magnum pleads ignorance and feels like a fool for having unwittingly drastically lowered the value of his gun. Of course, as an alternative, the ejection port could be welded up and reshaped to look like a standard ejection port, but I suspect that would lead to poor functioning with blanks, which wasn't all that great to begin with; plus it would be a lot of work to get it to look right.

By the way, here's a picture showing the version of Magnum's prop gun that's in the NRA's museum, along with a Singer M1911A1 for comparison:

Image
Weapons accountability is paramount in the military. I knew a few truly lost weapons, but they were few and far between. One of the units to which I was assigned spent a 3 day period searching a several acre area to find a stolen M-16A1. That M-16A1 was eventually recovered after a lengthy Army CID investigation, and the soldier who stole it had a Fort Leavenworth mailing address for 20 or so years.
When I first started buying guns as a 15-year-old in 1990, USGI M1911s were common and cheap. One of the gunshops in my area had 5 or 6 of them, all Colts, in well-used condition, for $275 each, and they weren't flying off the shelf. I should have bought all of them. Ironically, M1911A1s were less common and more expensive; I only ever saw one at a local gunshop around that time; a Remington Rand, for $400 (which I also should have bought). I say that it's ironic because they made way more M1911A1s than M1911s, but I suspect that, at some point (probably between WWI and WWII), they tightened up their measures to keep GIs from taking them home, which resulted in the newer M1911A1s being less common on the civilian market.

During the 1960s there was a 100% legal path to civilian ownership of M1911s and M1911A1s, through the CMP. Some people purchased NOS/unissued ones for cheap during that time. That didn't last long though, and relatively few people took advantage of it. The existence of the CMP isn't even very well known among the general public.
Last edited by MaximRecoil on Tue Aug 30, 2016 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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